Just think if "Smokey" Yunick was still alive
Nobody in nascar will ever win ten races in a row either; something Petty did in 1967
NASCAR banned OHC motors back in the 60's??
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Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
But the funny part is that the highest RPM engines are also usually OHC
So that big chain or chains flying around in practice doesn't seem to be much of an issue
And yes, OHC really isn't much if any newer than OHV, but the ability to independently manipulate cam timing independently for intake/exhaust is a technological advantage currently not available in the OHV realm, which was the point I was making.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KenO
stupid Americans
Whoa guys, we have a genius here!!!
Lead us to the promise land oh wise one!!!
But seriously, go [censored] yourself.
amen!
also being able to retard advance intake and exhaust valves independently is an advantage but one isn't newer tech than the other. they are just different. also think of the big chain flying around at 8500rpm uggg. makes me cringe.
But the funny part is that the highest RPM engines are also usually OHC
And yes, OHC really isn't much if any newer than OHV, but the ability to independently manipulate cam timing independently for intake/exhaust is a technological advantage currently not available in the OHV realm, which was the point I was making.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
Being able to advance/retard the intake exhaust timing independent of one another is the first thing that springs to mind when thinking of an advancement OHC has over OHV.
Agreed but the primary benefit may be emissions control. Moving the single cam in a OHV engine yields excellent performance and broadens the torque curve very well IME.
Add me to the group that just cringes when we think of yards of chains flying around at 8-9 grand!
I like the compact packaging of OHV, there is a reason the new Vette has the lowest center of gravity that has yet been measured by Car and Driver in a production car! If it was DOHC it would be quite significant to the packaging of the automobile...
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
Being able to advance/retard the intake exhaust timing independent of one another is the first thing that springs to mind when thinking of an advancement OHC has over OHV.
Agreed but the primary benefit may be emissions control. Moving the single cam in a OHV engine yields excellent performance and broadens the torque curve very well IME.
Add me to the group that just cringes when we think of yards of chains flying around at 8-9 grand!
I like the compact packaging of OHV, there is a reason the new Vette has the lowest center of gravity that has yet been measured by Car and Driver in a production car! If it was DOHC it would be quite significant to the packaging of the automobile...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I like the compact packaging of OHV, there is a reason the new Vette has the lowest center of gravity that has yet been measured by Car and Driver in a production car! If it was DOHC it would be quite significant to the packaging of the automobile...
Aussie V-8 supercars have taken advantage of the 7,500 limited redline to drop the deck height and the CoG of the small block engines...doesn't stop hem hitting 8500 on the downchanges.
I like the compact packaging of OHV, there is a reason the new Vette has the lowest center of gravity that has yet been measured by Car and Driver in a production car! If it was DOHC it would be quite significant to the packaging of the automobile...
Aussie V-8 supercars have taken advantage of the 7,500 limited redline to drop the deck height and the CoG of the small block engines...doesn't stop hem hitting 8500 on the downchanges.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
True. The other point, is NASCAR has never been about innovation. At this point, the only thing NASCAR is doing well, is marketing.
No idea how. Ratings have been on the decline for years now, 2 major networks (ESPN & Turner Broadcasting) both chose not to extend their contracts amid the ratings decline, but they somehow convinced NBC to cough up $4.4Bil.....
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130730/nascar01/130739989
I don't have a link, but I read somewhere that said even with falling ratings, NASCAR still has more viewers than NHL. MLB, and the NBA. It's second to the NFL.
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
what you guys are missing is that ohv isn't any less advanced than an ohc. its just different.
True. The other point, is NASCAR has never been about innovation. At this point, the only thing NASCAR is doing well, is marketing.
No idea how. Ratings have been on the decline for years now, 2 major networks (ESPN & Turner Broadcasting) both chose not to extend their contracts amid the ratings decline, but they somehow convinced NBC to cough up $4.4Bil.....
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130730/nascar01/130739989
I don't have a link, but I read somewhere that said even with falling ratings, NASCAR still has more viewers than NHL. MLB, and the NBA. It's second to the NFL.
Originally Posted By: KenO
Racing has ALWAYS driven innovation. Where do you think ABS came from? Ceramic brake technology? Electronic fuel injection? Traction Control? You know where a lot of the technology that GM used to design the LS GenIII engine family came from? ALL of it, derived from motor racing, particularly Formula One
Not really. In fact ABS and stability/traction control came late to racing. Ceramic is not really a racing pad, they mostly use carbon. FI electronic or otherwise was around for decades before being used in racing.
Trucks and buses are more responsible for these innovations than racing, with companies like Bosch, Bendix, Teves, TELDIX and others doing much of the R&D.
Thats not to say racing didn't improve or refine these things but they did not come into being because of it.
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-657486-1-803841-1-0-1-0-0-0-11701-614318-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/fuel-injection.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
http://www.akebonobrakes.com/company/media_center/white_papers/akebono_ceramic_tech.pdf
Racing has ALWAYS driven innovation. Where do you think ABS came from? Ceramic brake technology? Electronic fuel injection? Traction Control? You know where a lot of the technology that GM used to design the LS GenIII engine family came from? ALL of it, derived from motor racing, particularly Formula One
Not really. In fact ABS and stability/traction control came late to racing. Ceramic is not really a racing pad, they mostly use carbon. FI electronic or otherwise was around for decades before being used in racing.
Trucks and buses are more responsible for these innovations than racing, with companies like Bosch, Bendix, Teves, TELDIX and others doing much of the R&D.
Thats not to say racing didn't improve or refine these things but they did not come into being because of it.
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-657486-1-803841-1-0-1-0-0-0-11701-614318-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/fuel-injection.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
http://www.akebonobrakes.com/company/media_center/white_papers/akebono_ceramic_tech.pdf
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Originally Posted By: whip
I don't have a link, but I read somewhere that said even with falling ratings, NASCAR still has more viewers than NHL. MLB, and the NBA. It's second to the NFL.
It's interesting to note that the CBC up here just signed a 12 year, $5.2 billion TV deal with the NHL. Of course, it's not an apples to apples comparison, but given the disparity in population between Canada and the States, it seems clear that NASCAR TV viewership is in serious trouble.
I don't have a link, but I read somewhere that said even with falling ratings, NASCAR still has more viewers than NHL. MLB, and the NBA. It's second to the NFL.
It's interesting to note that the CBC up here just signed a 12 year, $5.2 billion TV deal with the NHL. Of course, it's not an apples to apples comparison, but given the disparity in population between Canada and the States, it seems clear that NASCAR TV viewership is in serious trouble.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I thought the Cammers and the aerobirds were ruled out to stop 200MPH exits into the crowd...Engine power and aero had out performed th safety systems of the day.
Restrictor plates later demonstrated, however that "simple" solutions are not necessarily the cheapest, and will always fuel (expensive) innovation
This...they had to slow the race cars down...but plenty of innovation was still taking place, within a rule-set designed to slow the cars...to get a normally-aspirated V-8 to turn 9,000+ RPM and make over 800 BhP is the result of innovation...within a very restrictive set of rules...new technology? Well...not that anyone would admit...and some very interesting engineering and materials science advances have taken place in NASCAR. Not a fan, personally, but to state that "Americans kill innovation" or words to that effect, isn't supported by the facts.
I thought the Cammers and the aerobirds were ruled out to stop 200MPH exits into the crowd...Engine power and aero had out performed th safety systems of the day.
Restrictor plates later demonstrated, however that "simple" solutions are not necessarily the cheapest, and will always fuel (expensive) innovation
This...they had to slow the race cars down...but plenty of innovation was still taking place, within a rule-set designed to slow the cars...to get a normally-aspirated V-8 to turn 9,000+ RPM and make over 800 BhP is the result of innovation...within a very restrictive set of rules...new technology? Well...not that anyone would admit...and some very interesting engineering and materials science advances have taken place in NASCAR. Not a fan, personally, but to state that "Americans kill innovation" or words to that effect, isn't supported by the facts.
Well, take a look at F1. I'm not saying NASCAR should go bananas and have teams with budgets approaching a billion dollars. The point is that regardless of old technology or new technology, you can make a pretty darned fast car without spending huge amounts of money (from a racer's perspective). NASCAR has limiting rules, just like F1.
I think a few more regular updates would increase interest.
I think a few more regular updates would increase interest.
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
Same here, and even though it would be nice for someone else to win it all for once, they would lose one more person from EVER even casually following it again (ME) IF the 2nd placed Toy team would have won the whole shebang this year.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
Same here, and even though it would be nice for someone else to win it all for once, they would lose one more person from EVER even casually following it again (ME) IF the 2nd placed Toy team would have won the whole shebang this year.
Originally Posted By: Garak
It's interesting to note that the CBC up here just signed a 12 year, $5.2 billion TV deal with the NHL.
OT, but that was a serious gaffe on my part. It was Rogers, not CBC. I think there's a law up here that you cannot write about televised hockey without reference to the CBC in the same sentence.
It's interesting to note that the CBC up here just signed a 12 year, $5.2 billion TV deal with the NHL.
OT, but that was a serious gaffe on my part. It was Rogers, not CBC. I think there's a law up here that you cannot write about televised hockey without reference to the CBC in the same sentence.
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
That thing was a beast of an engine. At some point in my life I want to throw one into something for fun and that shock value at a car show when you open the hood.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
That thing was a beast of an engine. At some point in my life I want to throw one into something for fun and that shock value at a car show when you open the hood.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
That thing was a beast of an engine. At some point in my life I want to throw one into something for fun and that shock value at a car show when you open the hood.
My grandfather had one in a Thunderbird. Apparently it was an absolute monster according to my mom who drove it a number of times
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The thought of a 8ft chain like used on the 427 SOHC is kinda scary. Luckily the use of chains on dedicated OHC racing engines has fallen by the wayside in favor of gear drive setups.
Chains tend to not do well over 15,000RPM just like valve springs.
Speaking of which, I have a really neat picture of a 427 SOHC with a belt drive on it instead of chains
That thing was a beast of an engine. At some point in my life I want to throw one into something for fun and that shock value at a car show when you open the hood.
My grandfather had one in a Thunderbird. Apparently it was an absolute monster according to my mom who drove it a number of times
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
Same here, and even though it would be nice for someone else to win it all for once, they would lose one more person from EVER even casually following it again (ME) IF the 2nd placed Toy team would have won the whole shebang this year.
To me, the manufacturers are no more than sponsors at this point in NASCAR. Chevy winning is no different than Lowes, Mountain Dew, or Budweiser.
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: ram_man
also ratings are down because the same guy keeps winning. jimmie Johnson has dominated since the chase began and that's why ratings are down. ratings around 10yrs ago were pretty good.
Interesting. I blame the chase format, not the 48 team. Even if the 48 wasn't winning, I think ratings would be down.
Same here, and even though it would be nice for someone else to win it all for once, they would lose one more person from EVER even casually following it again (ME) IF the 2nd placed Toy team would have won the whole shebang this year.
To me, the manufacturers are no more than sponsors at this point in NASCAR. Chevy winning is no different than Lowes, Mountain Dew, or Budweiser.
For a NASCAR engine, when you consider current rules regarding restrictors and gearing limits, the "OHC VS OHV" argument is pointless.
Airflow volume/CFM has not been a major consideration for a couple of engine generations now. Any new cup head will flow numbers that will boggle the mind if they are ported to their maximum airflow potential. Anything to do with airflow concerns efficiency with restrictors (smaller ports/air velocity/late cam closing) etc. Even on short tracks, airflow potential is much greater than what can be used.
NASCAR is the perfect example of where engine designers go when all of their performance options are limited by rules. The main concerns for the last decade has been cooling, and elimination of hotspots in the heads, and friction reduction. Why? The more tape you run on the front of the car covering up your radiator intake, the faster your car is. More tape= better times. Being able to run an engine on the edge as far as temperature is concerned is an advantage from an efficiency as well as aerodynamic standpoint.
The original engine rules (no OHC/ displacement limitations) were made for a few reasons. Cost primarily, and reduction of top end speeds (crowd safety)secondary. The formula worked for awhile until "Awesome Bill from Dawsonville" (possibly with Endyn contributions) came along and his speeds mandated the modern restrictor plate era we currently suffer under.
Airflow volume/CFM has not been a major consideration for a couple of engine generations now. Any new cup head will flow numbers that will boggle the mind if they are ported to their maximum airflow potential. Anything to do with airflow concerns efficiency with restrictors (smaller ports/air velocity/late cam closing) etc. Even on short tracks, airflow potential is much greater than what can be used.
NASCAR is the perfect example of where engine designers go when all of their performance options are limited by rules. The main concerns for the last decade has been cooling, and elimination of hotspots in the heads, and friction reduction. Why? The more tape you run on the front of the car covering up your radiator intake, the faster your car is. More tape= better times. Being able to run an engine on the edge as far as temperature is concerned is an advantage from an efficiency as well as aerodynamic standpoint.
The original engine rules (no OHC/ displacement limitations) were made for a few reasons. Cost primarily, and reduction of top end speeds (crowd safety)secondary. The formula worked for awhile until "Awesome Bill from Dawsonville" (possibly with Endyn contributions) came along and his speeds mandated the modern restrictor plate era we currently suffer under.
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