Napa ProSelect

Status
Not open for further replies.
I haven't gotten to taking pics of the filter yet, its a PS 21085 and the silver I put on was a 31085, but its exactly the same as the above filter in the link and youtube video.

I guess what i don't understand, and what makes me not like it, is how the bypass actually works? So pressure builds up in the can causing the spring to compress then oil is forced around the rubber "grommet" combo valve to the engine? To me that doesn't make any sense. That spring is very strong and the rubber is compressed very tight to the filter element and base plate. I do not see how any oil can get around the piece of rubber?

I do really like the Wix spring though and love the Napa gold's. When i cut open this filter more so than the 5 others i've done you could tell how much more force was being applied to the element and base plate, which makes it seem even more unlikely that oil makes it around the ADBV.

I guess its not a big deal because I haven't heard of engines dying from bypass issues myself, maybe their out there somewhere. And the car has the Napa/Ashland synthetic got with the filter special, so the cold properties of the oil are better anyways. I've just never came across this before.
 
Originally Posted By: SLATRON

I guess what i don't understand, and what makes me not like it, is how the bypass actually works? So pressure builds up in the can causing the spring to compress then oil is forced around the rubber "grommet" combo valve to the engine? To me that doesn't make any sense. That spring is very strong and the rubber is compressed very tight to the filter element and base plate. I do not see how any oil can get around the piece of rubber?


No, the big coil spring doesn't compress any more than it already is when the filter is put together. That big coil spring in the dome end of the filter is there to simply hold all the components of the filter tight inside the can.

How I think the combo valve works is that the delta-p pushing on the circular annulus of the rubber combo valve pushes the rubber inward using the delta-p around those cut-outs up against the end cap you see in the video at time 0:42, thereby breaking the "loose seal" around the hole in the metal end cap, and causing the oil to bypass the media and go right into the center tube and out the exit hole of the filter.

So you can see that the flexibility of the rubber is a direct contributor to how much delta-p is required to break that rubber seal around the hole in the end cap to allow oil to bypass. If the rubber is very cold, I'd think the delta-p would have to be greater to get the rubber to flex enough to bypass, and that's why people think a nitrile rubber combo valve in very cold weather might not work ideally.
 
Though it can be difficult to picture in one's mind, Zee did a good job of explaining how the rubber bypass is ideally supposed to function. The cut outs are supposed to control the seal (annulus) inside the centertube thus controlling the bypass. As said, the coil retainer spring would be no factor.

Another youtube below more clearly shows the cut outs, identations/channels which Zee noted. If you view in the range of 57-1:15 pause and zoom you can get a close look at the cut outs. In a traditional base end bypass, the bypass function is controlled by a metal coil spring, as can be clearly seen in Wix and Motorcraft bypasses. Interestingly though Wix/Napa Gold chooses to use dome end bypass in the FL820S equivalent of the AE in the video. Beyond the combo valve pics I don't vouch for reliability of the makers comments and the AE is not the same as a Wix.

I mentioned that the ecore also use a combo valve, but for GM AC/Delco applications that use ecore the bypass is in engine, so no combo valve bypass is needed. The ACDelco ecore only have an adbv.
 
Dave Newton made a great post on another thread that I believe is very pertinent to this one. With all the consternation about Wix's combo bypass, read this.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3


You know, so many folks make the wrong presumption about why the filter bypass exists in the first place.

Generally, the bypass valve is not there to protect the engine; there is way more flow (volume and velocity of oil) supplied by the pump than the engine needs. Any excess "flow" is burped off at the pump relief. The high pressure at the cold start cycle cannot be interpreted to mean that the engine is starving for oil. It is only an indication that pressure in the system is building due to OVERALL SYSTEM resistance, not just at the filter. Jim's data shows that the filter bypass will open under very limited circumstances, but when it does, that should NOT be interpreted to mean that the engine was starving for oil. It ONLY means the media was being protected. Once relief starts (within fractions of a second) the output from the filter is balanced again to system pressure. The bypass valve in the filter is to protect the media from being blown out (for a lack of a better term). It does nothing to save the engine from destruction. The pump relief operates on a principle of delta P between oil circuits and atmospheric pressure (typical vented sump system). But the filter operates on dP across the media. Don't confuse the two, or their intended functions.

I will also note that the size of the opening for the bypass valve in the filter is likely large enough to pass enough volume and velocity that the engine would not starve for oil in the critical pathways, should the media ever blind off to a point of total obstruction (think total neglect). The only time the media is at risk is when the delta P across the media is high enough, long enough, for the media to succumb to destruction. That is practically never, folks. In short, even fully blocked media should not keep oil from reaching the engine. It would be undesirable because it's unfiltered, but the engine surely would not starve for oil.

The only time the engine is at pressure and flow risk is when the pump isn't performing to a minimum requirement, or the relief valve is stuck open.

As for filter bypass events, I've said this before and I'll say it again. Results trump theory every time.
One of two conditions MUST exist; there are no other alternatives.
1) filter bypass events are frequent
2) filter bypass events are infrequent
Either way, where is the data to show that one theory results in heavy wear trending versus the alternative? We have some decent data from Jim to show that the truth is predominant in condition 2. But does it really matter overall? Will a larger filter (all other conditions being equal) result in any tangible difference in wear? Wear being defined as statistically significant that can be counted upon as proof in a UOA, or in teardown analysis ... I see none. Feel free to point it out if you have access to it, because it would be of profound interest to me. To be truly viable data, we'd need a large series of sample UOAs in both conditions. Read my article on UOA normalcy to understand the basics.

The ONLY time I could see a larger fitler being of use is if the following operational conditions happened:
1) the "normal" filter was used so long that it totally blinded off the media, and the filter was in perpetual bypass (a larger filter would not prevent this, but it could defer it in time)
2) the continual contamination accumulation was great enough that the oil add pack was eventually overwhelmed and could not contain the harmful particulate in a manner to prevent wear escalation; in essence the particulate load would overcome the additives and attack the barrier in a manner sufficient to alter wear trending

Let us not forget SAE 2007-01-4133 that shows longer O/FCIs indicate that wear trends DOWN as the OCI gets longer (at least out to 15k miles). There most certainly is a point where wear would reverse its trend, and start up. But we have no DATA, no FACTS, to show when that would be. AND, that study did not utilize different filter sizes; that would be an entirely different study all together. The main contolling entity in wear control is NOT the filter; it is the tribochemical barrier that is developed after OCI. Would it be your supposition that a larger filter would have made for even less wear in this study? The wear was down by a factor of 10 after just a few thousand miles for goodness sake! The wear was so negligible that it was almost non-existent! Just how much "better" do any of you think a "bigger" filter would make it????? The only way to know how these would react independently would be to run several DOE tasks where you manipulated the OCI and FCI, only AFTER the wear trends were affected. You would have to run control groups and study groups. You'd have to seek to affect the wear by manipulating the filter media only AFTER the wear trended up in "normal" circumstances. How many of you have tried this? How many of you have read about this? To this date, I have NEVER seen any such study.

My closing points are these:
- there is reasonble data to show that bypass events are infrequent (Jim's data and his affirmation of information from engineers in the filter industry)
- there is reasonable data to show that bypass infrequent events are harmless (thousands of UOAs here and elsewhere)
- there is reason to conclude that filters do not directly affect lube flow to a point of equipment starvation with components in good condition (pinciple understanding of hydraulic systems)
- there is reasonable data to show that OEM filters (even at 15k miles) offer fine procection, complimentary to the tribochemical barrier (SAE study)
- there is no data to show that larger filters would alter these conditions, at least in a practical sense where any BITOGGer would ever tread


To coin a phrase ...
The only thing a Bittoger has to fear is filter fear itself.



I had great results with the combo valved Silver so far. When I cut it, combined with my results if it looks good there is no reason to think the bypass wasn't working. If the media appears to be subjected to signs of excessive pressure or torn, I'd say I'd be done with them.

Surely you would think Wix engineers would have thought of cold starts, long OCI's and thick oil when they designed and tested the combo valve.

I don't like the combo valve on the ecore because 1) it's an ecore and 2) when I tested one it didn't work right for me. The Wix combo valve is a different animal.
 
DNewton's post does not specifically adresss the reliability and durability of the bypass in a cheap nitrile combo valve versus the separate metal spring bypass and adbv used in tradition oil filters. In fact his post make no mention of using rubber to function as a bypass designed function at a spec'd psid. So imo, it's irrelevant specifically to the combo valve design.

And while the Wix rubber grommet combo design is not exactly the same as Champ's, the concept of how the bypass is supposed to function is the same, rubber cut outs/channels control when the oil is in bypass. And again, Wix won't use combo valves for their own branded filters. Why is that.

I've given that it may work for some especially in short oci stituations. I've also given that a user could have no way to know even with a post oci dissection if the filter was in bypass more often and/or longer than spec psid. That is the opposite situation to the oil starvation scenario which is more often the focus including DNewtons post.

If some choose to beta test the combo valve design, that's thier choice. Clearly reading this thread should help one make an informed decision. To quote Jim Allen in this thread and also mentioned in DN's link; "More than one engineer in the filter industry has stated that the combo valve is not ready for prime time."
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep

Surely you would think Wix engineers would have thought of cold starts, long OCI's and thick oil when they designed and tested the combo valve.


Yes, one would think that adequate testing under expected extreme conditions was done by the designers/manufacturer. Guess I'd have to see the design qualification test report to feel comfortable about it.
smile.gif
 
I like this filter so much I am thinking of using the oversize version for a longer OCI (I have some German Castrol on deck) but I want to see the standard one I'm running cut first.

I already have some premium filters on hand though (Fram Tough Guards) so that would kinda be like hitching a mule into the Budweiser Clydesdales.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom