My oil-in-freezer test.
- Thread starter stranger706
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We do have a freezer at work that i believe is -20F. We use it to keep certain compounds in to keep them fresh. I may put a thermocouple in there to measure the temp and redue some of the most common oils. I also think it would be very interesting to see very low temp data
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
You're assuming it's the oil that creates this wear and not the ill fitting cold parts.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
You're assuming it's the oil that creates this wear and not the ill fitting cold parts.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
Exactly. People split hairs over tiny differences in +100c visc. "Oh, I want the thickest 5w-20" or such, but don't understand all the trade-offs. Like the thicker oil will shear more than the thin oil, the thinner will be more volitile, etc. Take GTX, it's is great against burn-off, but not so great in cold.
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
Exactly. People split hairs over tiny differences in +100c visc. "Oh, I want the thickest 5w-20" or such, but don't understand all the trade-offs. Like the thicker oil will shear more than the thin oil, the thinner will be more volitile, etc. Take GTX, it's is great against burn-off, but not so great in cold.
I've observed how thick the Mobil 1 0w30 seems to get in the bottle at 0F. While it doesn't slosh, it still flows around the bottle quite nicely.
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Castrol EDGE 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Castrol EDGE has esters IIRC.
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Castrol EDGE 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Castrol EDGE has esters IIRC.
I did the same thing with Valvoline Synpower and other brands last winter except I put them outside in the snow on -5 to -20 nights. Old Mobil 1 5w20 circa 2003 and reformulated GM 4718M spec Synpower still sloshed around the bottle in the morning. Not much but it still did. Mobil 1 and PP were close behind so was YB. All though I wouldn't hesitate running GTX 10w30 in a diesel in the winter!
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Castrol EDGE 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Castrol EDGE has esters IIRC.
Mobil 1 0w30 is about 70% PAO.
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Castrol EDGE 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Castrol EDGE has esters IIRC.
Mobil 1 0w30 is about 70% PAO.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Edge 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Edge has esters IIRC.
Mobil 1 0w30 is certainly GP IV & V based with a MVR @-40 of 11,100 cP.
Castrol Edge 5w30 is a light 30 wt based on it's 100C vis but it's 40C vis, MVR etc stat's aren't available which is annoying but I suspect it should have slightly better low temp performance to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 (GP III).
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 was much thicker. I would not use this during the winter, despite what some people say about any weight synthetic being year-round. It gets a 4.
Edge 5w30 was still pretty thin. I give it a 2.
Mobil 1 0w30 was the odd ball, being quite thick. Really surprised me, especially since it pours like water at room temp. Just about as thick as the Pennzoil Platinum 10w30. It gets a 4.
I'm not surprised by the results of these XW30 oils. Aren't both Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum group 3 base oils? Group 3 is great except for cold temp properties. Edge has esters IIRC.
Mobil 1 0w30 is certainly GP IV & V based with a MVR @-40 of 11,100 cP.
Castrol Edge 5w30 is a light 30 wt based on it's 100C vis but it's 40C vis, MVR etc stat's aren't available which is annoying but I suspect it should have slightly better low temp performance to Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 (GP III).
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
You're assuming it's the oil that creates this wear and not the ill fitting cold parts.
The assumption, it seems to me, is not necessarilly that the oil creates the wear, as much as that better low temp performance of the oil will help to mitigate wear of those cold parts.
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I think the freezer test has a lot of validity.
Approx. 0 deg F showed big differences in oil thickness.
This is a common winter start up temperature.
-20 or -25 F would also be very enlightening, as many of us encounter that or lower.
Some here have argued about the relative merits of the respective oils once they were well warmed up, but that is a separate issue.
I agree. And since the majority of engine wear occurs during the time between startup (whatever temperature that may be) and operationg temperature, I think it would be a good idea to pay more attention to cold oil viscosities.
Its really not a big deal for me, being on the gulf coast, it may freeze a few times each winter. But for a lot of people up north its a much bigger issue.
You're assuming it's the oil that creates this wear and not the ill fitting cold parts.
The assumption, it seems to me, is not necessarilly that the oil creates the wear, as much as that better low temp performance of the oil will help to mitigate wear of those cold parts.
If more BITOG members had oil pressure/temperature gauges in their cars much more attention would be paid to low oil temp performance.
The reason being that in most applications, even in the summer months a good 90% of an engines operating time is spent with oil temps below 100C. And in a temperate climate, six months of the year you won't see 80C all that often.
On top of that, if you're the conscientious owner of a high performance car you of course want to keep the rev's down until the oil has thinned out enough so that the oil pump at least doesn't go into bypass. If the spec oil is a 40 wt or heavier you'll quickly find that you frequently can't use maximum rev's at all in the winter without going to a lighter and/or higher VI oil. And even a 0w30 may be too heavy.
As an example; most of us are familiar with Dr. Haas and his Enzo Ferrari. Even though he lives in Florida, his maximum oil temps on the street are only 182F and it takes at least 20 minutes of running time to get up to that temperature. The spec' oil is Shell Helix 10W-60 but he's running RLI 0W-20. Why, because that 20 wt oil has the same operational viscosity of a 40 wt at 100C or a 60 wt at 120C. On top of that Dr. Haas has admitted that he doesn't always have the patience of waiting for the oil to come up to temperature before using maximum rev's (8,500 rpm) so he's much more comfortable knowing he has a lighter oil in the sump. He is also cognoscent of the fact that cavitation can easily occur with the spec' oil if the engine is revved with the oil even as warm as room temp's let alone colder.
The reason being that in most applications, even in the summer months a good 90% of an engines operating time is spent with oil temps below 100C. And in a temperate climate, six months of the year you won't see 80C all that often.
On top of that, if you're the conscientious owner of a high performance car you of course want to keep the rev's down until the oil has thinned out enough so that the oil pump at least doesn't go into bypass. If the spec oil is a 40 wt or heavier you'll quickly find that you frequently can't use maximum rev's at all in the winter without going to a lighter and/or higher VI oil. And even a 0w30 may be too heavy.
As an example; most of us are familiar with Dr. Haas and his Enzo Ferrari. Even though he lives in Florida, his maximum oil temps on the street are only 182F and it takes at least 20 minutes of running time to get up to that temperature. The spec' oil is Shell Helix 10W-60 but he's running RLI 0W-20. Why, because that 20 wt oil has the same operational viscosity of a 40 wt at 100C or a 60 wt at 120C. On top of that Dr. Haas has admitted that he doesn't always have the patience of waiting for the oil to come up to temperature before using maximum rev's (8,500 rpm) so he's much more comfortable knowing he has a lighter oil in the sump. He is also cognoscent of the fact that cavitation can easily occur with the spec' oil if the engine is revved with the oil even as warm as room temp's let alone colder.
hhhmmmmm......
It would be interesting to see how the Shell Rotella 15w40 would do in this test - probably very scary....
It would be interesting to see how the Shell Rotella 15w40 would do in this test - probably very scary....
Patman
Staff member
Freezer tests are interesting but the best way to see how different oils perform in the cold would be to put those bottles outside your house overnight on a very cold winter day. That way you can see their performance under much colder temps than your freezer will give you. I've done it myself a few times over the years and have always found 10w30 oils (even synthetic) to be extremely thick and can't possibly imagine running them in the winter.
In the Midwest we usually expect - 20F every winter, and chase the Iowa cold record (-47F) occasionally.
I have run the following tests, using the calibrated chamber of a major defense contractor!! (-40 degrees is a Military Spec, almost every electronic device in an airplane must be extensively tested at this temperature)
I took some clear plastic tubes and put a marble in each one, then filled them with oil. Yes, the marbles were precisely weighed - they are identical.
A piece of double sided tape and stuck them all on a board so they could all be turned over at once, and watch the marbles fall.
Wow, wish I had lot more samples but at - 40 degrees.....
Valvoline 30W .......Marble never moves, oil frozen solid.
valvoline 10W40 60 seconds to the bottom
Valvoline 10W30 45 seconds to the bottom
castrol 5W30 25 seconds to the bottom
Mobil 1 0w20 5 seconds to the bottom
Let me caution anyone doing a pour test - the samples heat rapidly, even a few seconds out of the cold chamber and everything changes. The last sample tested will perform better than the first sample. that is why I put them all on a board and turned them over together. If you turn the board over again, everything will be at least twice as fast! The last few degrees make a huge difference, and of course viscosity charts show that.
Only the Mobil 1 in the above sample was synthetic, a very incomplete test to say the least but... That is what was in my Escort last winter that successfully started at -40.7 last winter, none of the rest of the "outside" cars on my street could manage more than a low moan, let alone start!!
For a full report on that event:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1343785/
I have run the following tests, using the calibrated chamber of a major defense contractor!! (-40 degrees is a Military Spec, almost every electronic device in an airplane must be extensively tested at this temperature)
I took some clear plastic tubes and put a marble in each one, then filled them with oil. Yes, the marbles were precisely weighed - they are identical.
A piece of double sided tape and stuck them all on a board so they could all be turned over at once, and watch the marbles fall.
Wow, wish I had lot more samples but at - 40 degrees.....
Valvoline 30W .......Marble never moves, oil frozen solid.
valvoline 10W40 60 seconds to the bottom
Valvoline 10W30 45 seconds to the bottom
castrol 5W30 25 seconds to the bottom
Mobil 1 0w20 5 seconds to the bottom
Let me caution anyone doing a pour test - the samples heat rapidly, even a few seconds out of the cold chamber and everything changes. The last sample tested will perform better than the first sample. that is why I put them all on a board and turned them over together. If you turn the board over again, everything will be at least twice as fast! The last few degrees make a huge difference, and of course viscosity charts show that.
Only the Mobil 1 in the above sample was synthetic, a very incomplete test to say the least but... That is what was in my Escort last winter that successfully started at -40.7 last winter, none of the rest of the "outside" cars on my street could manage more than a low moan, let alone start!!
For a full report on that event:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1343785/
Originally Posted By: Patman
Freezer tests are interesting but the best way to see how different oils perform in the cold would be to put those bottles outside your house overnight on a very cold winter day. That way you can see their performance under much colder temps than your freezer will give you. I've done it myself a few times over the years and have always found 10w30 oils (even synthetic) to be extremely thick and can't possibly imagine running them in the winter.
I think the best way to go about it is to fill your engine with an oil and then start it on a cold winter morning holding a decibel meter above the hood to measure the banging, knocking and tapping sounds... I recommend starting with a 20w50 for best results...
Freezer tests are interesting but the best way to see how different oils perform in the cold would be to put those bottles outside your house overnight on a very cold winter day. That way you can see their performance under much colder temps than your freezer will give you. I've done it myself a few times over the years and have always found 10w30 oils (even synthetic) to be extremely thick and can't possibly imagine running them in the winter.
I think the best way to go about it is to fill your engine with an oil and then start it on a cold winter morning holding a decibel meter above the hood to measure the banging, knocking and tapping sounds... I recommend starting with a 20w50 for best results...
WOW.... I'm really glad I am switching to 5w30 for winter versus the 10W-40 I have now
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Originally Posted By: fsskier
StevieC I am with you on this one. I bet at - 40 the engine with 20W50 would be the quietest of all. Just a few slow soft moans from the starter then.......... silence!!!
Yup!
StevieC I am with you on this one. I bet at - 40 the engine with 20W50 would be the quietest of all. Just a few slow soft moans from the starter then.......... silence!!!
Yup!
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