My guinea pig is down -cooling system issue

[Gary Allan]

This is a copy of the post that I put on the Allpar forum. I'm sure I will get an answer there ..but since some here are following my filter testing, I figured I'd share it with you. Someone here may have insight into my problem and calm my anxieties.

Okay, my daughter took my 92 3.0 Caravan back to college to bring back her stuff for the summer. The van had a stablized coolant leak that I thought was an external head gasket leak. I had made the trip 4 or 5 times (186 one way) with my wife and sustained no coolant loss. Her designated use of the van was to go back to college ...load her stuff on the last day ..and come home. She was told to check the water in the rad and the overflow tank. To make a long story longer, her lacrosse team made the NCAA semi-finals being 2nd in their conference (Div II) so she was at college after classes had ended. Anyway, she used the van excessively and didn't check the water (very short trips), and I got a call when she decided to take the team tubing down the river (not that far away). She over heated it. No problem ..got it refilled with water and she went about her way ...balling like crazy since I chewed her out for being a negligent operator of my van when I had thoroughly advised her of precautions and use limits on the vehicle (I'll save some space and not give you the full rant).

Anyway, they lost at the tourney and when she got back to Lock Haven she started to drive home. I get a call @ 5am and drive 75 miles to a point on I-80 where she broke down. We fill it with water and head to the next leg of the trip (the NE extension of the PA turnpike). The heat came up very quick and I stopped at a convenience store and looked at where it was leaking. The water was pouring out of the area near the front of the engine (timing cover) at a very decent rate. It also, to a very reduced degree) had a stream of water coming where the lower rad hose attaches to a pipe which dissapears under the intake. A 75 mile flatbed fee on a Sunday (or anyday prolly) is about $295.

The question(s):

Does this pipe traverse the intake valley going to the water pump? I would assume so since the upper hose attaches to the engine block.

This leaks too much to be some typical "weep hole" for a traditional water pump. It POURS out, draining the rad to that level in a very short time.


I'm sure that someone has explored this pipe and its interface with the water pump.

Oh ..there is also the possibility that this is the "impossible to change" bypass hose is pouring in two directions. That is, its got a big rip in it ..and is dumping the coolant and the resultant flow is ALSO routing through the intake valley. I'll naturally have this explored ..but we always seek hope of something simple (and cheap). This is a concern since deluxe long blocks for this thing challenge quite effectively several interlocking repairs (timing belt, water pump, etc..ect) for movie theater popcorn like value (double the price ..near new engine/wp/oil pump, etc.)

Naturally there are budget concerns ..(aren't there always?) but I'm trying to avoid credit card debt like the plague here.


Kindly share your thoughts.

 

[The_Jeff]

One question, vague since I don't know your motor, is do you really need that heated intake circuit? That is, is this a 3/4 or 5/8" pipe that goes through the intake, some hose, and the heater core too? Maybe you could eliminate everything and bypass around it?

Those heated intakes are generally to help the fuel atomize better; I've seen performance types cut them out of the water circuit to get cooler, denser, more powerful air.

Without heat, next winter, if you let your daughter have the van back, she'll certainly only drive it when necessary.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, although it may serve some function in that regard, it is primarily uses to transport the water to the water pump. The thermostat outlet is on the top of the engine (left from front view) and enters the rad on the left side. The rad outlet, naturally, is from the lower right. This attaches to a FULL SIZE PIPE that disappears into the valley benieth the plenumn (view is obstructed) on its way to the water pump. It may or may not mate to a internal port/flange. Our domestic remedy for this orientation situation is to have the lower hose attach to the wp directly and the thermostat housing exiting the block at the "non-pulley/timing chain/belt" end of the engine. This obviously, for one reason or another something that Mitubishi has chosen to deal with in some other manner ..probably due to so many different chassis that this engine was placed in.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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You had established that the van was not leaking, and then you blame her when it starts leaking? Short trips? Its a car right? She was driving it. It broke. Why blame her? Because she used it excessively?

I hope I have not made an enemy.

---

Well, let me put my anxiety and mild anger (not so quiet desparation) in perspective.

When I reconditioned her beater Taurus for her use at college, I perceverated on her checking the oil. At one point, when asked, she would say "It says "SAFE"...an inspection of the dipstick upon her return showed no such notation on the dipstick. That is, she was merely giving me an answer to shut me up.

When she drove this van in the past (it was her daily driver for her highschool licensed years) she called me one morning saying that the van would not start (she was staying overnight at a friend's house). I went to jump it. The battery was toast and you had to hold the gas elevated or the mere application of the brake lights would stall the van. When I got in the van the brake pedal was halfway down to the floor and the brake warning light was illuminated, correctly announcing a fluid pressure imbalance between the front and rear circuits. When applied the front rotors ground with each application.

This got her a major lecture about being "critical of your environment" and simple awareness of "hmmm, that's funny ..it never did that before ..wonder what it is?? Maybe I better check it out or at least ask dad and maybe stop using it until I know more" type instances that occur everyday to everybody.

Now fast forward about two years and have her stictly and definitely told to check the water. While she was going tubing ..she reported "Dad, there started to be a rattle under the hood. Whenever you pushed on the gas ..it rattled". She was describing the pinging of multiple shockwaves of a fragmented flame front of an overheated engine. Did she stop since something was "unright"?? No ..she continued on her way in ignorant bliss until there was a steam cloud erupting from under the hood. She, after a phone consultation (and very subdued lecture) let the van totally cool and refilled it with water ...and all appeared well.

She wonders why I tell her that her buying and riding a motor cycle is not wise for her.

In any event, I'm of the opinion that if she had not subjected the van to this insult, that this break down would not have occured and not cost me $250 of unrecoverable towing fees. There are plenty of warnings to any such events well before they turn into damaging ones. She did a spectacular job of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by negligence and being too incompetent to follow very distinct and redundantly applied simple instructions.

That is, she behaved like a sterotypical dumb blonde (she is blonde). I have little patience for selective stupidity. That I reserve for hunting breed dogs that show exceptional ingenuity to accomplish their goals (getting out of a fenced yard, stealing another dog/cats food, ect) ..but limited inteligence to integrate your commands/desires. If she can cope with two years of college, NCAA semi finalist goalkeeping ability, and manage to offer to "take the girls" tubing in Dad's van, then she easily has the ability to spend .00001% of that apparent ability on following some very simple and thoroughly explained steps in its care.

I was very disappointed and I may have her pay for the repair. If I'm buying a long block due to the accumlative return on $$$ ..she surely will bear a decent amount of the costs. She made $8800 last summer and her rent for off campus housing was $2700 (shared house) for both semesters...and we still gave her additional $1000's in support (clothing, books, care packages, fuel expenses for any time she wanted to come home for the weekend along with special items whenever she was home ..and all the ancillary expenses that one sustains when you have a kid in college ..let alone routine 300-400 mile trips to provide parental support for athletic events at $50-100 a piece).

As you can see, I'm not over this "violation" of trust and the false assumptions of responsibility for the liberties and priveleges that have been granted her. These involved substantial personal and family sacrifices souly for her benefit and to create a healthy learning environment for her.

(rant off)

quote:

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I hope I have not made an enemy.

---

Not at all, pal!

This is a "geezer" thing. You too will go through this if you encounter this like event after you've spent most of your useful life raising kids that don't obey you as though you are the next highest authority aside from THE ALMIGHTY. You will have provided the sustanence of their existance via proxy and given them all that your love can provide ...and you will have the perfect right to be angered and disappointed with performance that is less than what you deem as the "minimum" standard in return. Again, my friend ..all in due time..

quote:

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Anyway, they lost at the tourney

That's too bad.

---

Well, they went further than any team in the history of women's lacrosse at Lock Haven U...nothing to be ashamed of at all.

quote:

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As far as your leaks. The water pump shaft seal can pour out liquid if it ruptures badly enough. As far as the other leak I believe their is an O-Ring on that pipe that runs through the valley of the engine.

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I'm hoping for the bypass hose to be torn and the "O" ring leaking due to the superheated steam not being able to escape from the 7lb cap that I had put on to reduce system pressure.

We shall see, looks like that timing belt and water pump may be put on now if that is the case.

EDIT: I got this useful diagram off of a kind soul on Allpar.. It depicts what you described to me, Winston.

[ May 18, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Winston]

I knew I could get the entire rant out of you.

My boss has a million stories. (that I have had to hear a million times)

An appropriate one: There was a guy who had a dog with a curly tail. He wanted his dog to have a straight tail so he put the dogs tail in a pipe and let the dog wear this for a month. So, of course during that month the tail was straight. However, when he took the pipe off, the tail was once again curly. Thus, his phrase "you can't straighten a curly tail"

It seems clear that when your daughter leaves the house, the pipe comes off.

A good source for your timing belt/water pump.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7959468525&category=33625

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I knew I could get the entire rant out of you.

---

You know me too well.

(note from my other self: He's on to us ..be careful

)

Thanks for the link. I won't be pulling this appart myself. For the hassle that my semi-buddy wrench will go through, I won't begrudge him the parts markup. I just can't do surgery like I used to. This would be a two day job for me ..and suppose my valley tube is corroded to the point of needing replacement? Another two days for the part if the dealership doesn't have it...

 

[Winston]

Well, I guess you are going to have to change your timing belt now. I'd say you have done pretty well to get 170k on the original water pump.


Now I don't want to go off topic but....

quote:

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van had a stablized coolant leak that I thought was an external head gasket leak. I had made the trip 4 or 5 times (186 one way) with my wife and sustained no coolant loss.

---

You had established that the van was not leaking, and then you blame her when it starts leaking? Short trips? Its a car right? She was driving it. It broke. Why blame her? Because she used it excessively?

I hope I have not made an enemy.

quote:

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Anyway, they lost at the tourney

---

That's too bad.

As far as your leaks. The water pump shaft seal can pour out liquid if it ruptures badly enough. As far as the other leak I believe their is an O-Ring on that pipe that runs through the valley of the engine.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Gary it is a man versus woman thing as well. Once my wife woke me up on a saturday norning. The night before I had instructed here not to wake me up unless the house was on fire or someone was dying! So I was upset when she woke me. She was my girlfriend then. We were both still in college. She wakes me withthis gem " Honey I have been cranking the truck car for 30 minutes and it will not start!" I say " Are you mad you can not crank an engine for 30 minutes at a time!!" It was a carberated car with a choke and it was a cold Michigan winter. I go down stairs and I can hear the battery boiling with the hood shut. I open the hood and the battery is boiling like mad and is off gasing an insane amount. I could not even touch the starter it was so hot. Their was raw gas running out the tail pipe and a puddle on the ground!

After the starter adn battery cooled down I pulled the choke out 1/2 way and pumped it real fast as I cranked and it fired up the first try! She insisted that the car just ahted her!

Then one time I had a truck with a nice small block in it. I was putting out a little more then 380HP to all four wheels. It did not have choke. I did have a mitusbishi high torq. starter and two commerical 12 volts. Each 12 volt was about 3 feet long and 1 foot wide and about 2 foot high. I used to make here use either to start that one. The O-Ring for the distributor went out on it and so it leaked a bit. I was going to replace it when she returned from getting here Wedding dress fited. I told here she had to check the oil before she drove it home from Port Huron. She drove it 150-180 miles home with the oil cap off of the vechile. I went down stairs to help here un pack and I smelled burning oil. I pop the hood and their is oil all over the underside. Their was no oil reading on the dipstick at all!

Another time a vechile of ours she was driveing had some bad U-Joints and she never thought that the clunking sound was anyting to tell me about untill the drivetrain was vibrateing real badly. She calls me at work and tels me the truck was vibrateing badly. She could remember if it had been makeing clunking noises up to this point or not. So I leave work early and swing buy her work place to take a look. I crawl under the vechile and as soon as I touch the driveshaft it falls and hits me on the head!

So now I try to drive whatever vechile she is driveing at least once every two weeks! I have found that she can not tell that the engine sounds different or is running rough or missing etc... She does not here the strange groans and squeaks. In here family if a check engine light comes on they just put eletrical tape over the light and keep on driveing!!!!

I on the other hand like to prepare for the worst and want my vechile to be mission ready at all times!

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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In her family if a check engine light comes on they just put eletrical tape over the light and keep on driving!!!!

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Funny you should say this. When she drove the Caravan full time ..the maint light would come on every 60k (just once for her @ 120k). It required a scanner to turn it off. I replaced the O2 sensor (which is why it goes off and makes you (prolly) go to the dealer to get it reset). I did eventually get it reset, but in the meantime, she placed tape over it. My wife and I sat there, with her at the kitchen table with us, describing how she would walk in one day asking where the black tape was bacause she needed to cover up another light that had turned on in the dash. "Which light is that, sweety?" "Oh, the one that looks like a watering can ..or gravy boat. You know the one with the drop coming out of it.".

Let me give you a little more insight here (she's well aware of some of her limitations):

We're in a theater that has a slide show before the movie (advertisements mixed with entertainment/bordom killing stuff) about 7 years ago or so. She begins reading the captions. One said: Clap if you believe in the Planet of the Apes (pronounced aps). Her 4 year younger sister (the honors one) says: "It's APES you #$@$@#$." My wife almost wet herself.

(I have a few more stories I could tell).

She is the closest to me of all my children. Of them all, she is the most difficult to get angry at ..at least for more then a few minutes. She sure does give me something to whine about ..and she surely can make a parent feel needed well beyond the point where most don't have the time of day for you.

 

[srivett]

Gary,
I think you'll have to giver her a car and put it in her name. If she calls with a problem give her the name of a mechanic to call. She's gonna have to learn to maintain a car eventually so it may as well be with beater and her own money.

I don't think that it was her fault this time around but you've posted quite a few stories where it was her fault. I don't blame her for trying to make it to her destination even though the van was dying because being in a situation where you can't help yourself is quite scary.

Steve

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I'm surely somewhat foolishly optimistic that anyone is going to share my level of awareness in these matters. I'm really whining because I should have known better. I'm not really that upset ..just ranting about the cost of certain things that appear unnecessary if everyone does as you expect them to ..which they never do.

It will be fixed and forgotten by next week. I'll be happy ..rationalizing that it was time to get the timing belt done anyway and the wp too....yadayadayada. She'll pay a little more attention to me (my son finally saw the cause and effect relationship of how we got smarter the older he got) and we'll all move on to the next challenge.

 

[deepsquat]

WOW Gary that is a bummer! As so as you said cooling problem and that you were going to let your daughter borrow the car ...I though OH no!
she will drive that thing until steam pours out of it.....

...... I guess you should have taped a note in front of the speedometer saying ..Have you cheecked the water? ....she does look at the speedometer , doesn't she????


My wife used to have a car ( heck it is still parked out front..need to get ride of it) that burnt oil like no tomorrow , 1 quart per 60 miles...not kidding, so inessanse while she was going to school a few years ago she was going through 1 quart a day . I was alway having to put in oil I could not convince her to do it, no matter what even if I left a note telling her to put oil in .she would still not do it!
Now this is an extreamly smart woman..she had to learn the name of, the orgin,insertion and action of EVERY muscle in the human body BUT SHE COULD REMEMBER TO PUT A QUART OF OIL IN !
Rant over