My Favorite Car!
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I ran a built TH400 (actually, the Cadillac long-shaft case with TH475 guts) for a long time...for the last ~50,000 miles, I have run a built TH-200-4R. It's basically a lower-stall version of what a serious Grand National would run...tool steel input shaft, HD intermediate drum, a bunch of extra clutches (I think Kevlar), super-HD pump, and a HD lockup converter. (Also a deep pan and a gigantic cooler pirated from an old garbage truck.)
I don't recommend a 200-4R in cars heavier than 3900 pounds.
I ran a built TH400 (actually, the Cadillac long-shaft case with TH475 guts) for a long time...for the last ~50,000 miles, I have run a built TH-200-4R. It's basically a lower-stall version of what a serious Grand National would run...tool steel input shaft, HD intermediate drum, a bunch of extra clutches (I think Kevlar), super-HD pump, and a HD lockup converter. (Also a deep pan and a gigantic cooler pirated from an old garbage truck.)
I don't recommend a 200-4R in cars heavier than 3900 pounds.
No? I have to say I'm quite impressed with mine. (When I got it, the standalone 4L80E was a new thing.) I also recall that a 4L80E in a B-body requires floorpan surgery. I didn't like the TH700's Chevy-only bellhousing and massive 1-2 ratio split.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No? I have to say I'm quite impressed with mine. (When I got it, the standalone 4L80E was a new thing.) I also recall that a 4L80E in a B-body requires floorpan surgery. I didn't like the TH700's Chevy-only bellhousing and massive 1-2 ratio split.
No, I really don't.....I have to warranty these things if they break, I always just assume that a customer is going too beat the snot out of a transmission if they have a Built Engine.
The 200-4R is a GREAT transmission, But they were not engineered to handle massive amounts of torque in heavy vehicles, Thus the need for aftermarket Input Shaft, Forward Clutch Drum, Overdrive Ring Gear, Overdrive Carrier, & Heat Treated Sun Gear Shell.
To make the pressure needed without the Pump breaking, You need.....A Billet Pump Rotor, Hardened Pump Rings, .555" TV Boost Valve, .300" Reverse/Intermediate Boost Valve, HD Primer Spring & HD PR Spring, Machine the Pump Body & Pump Cover for Perfect clearances to obtain the 295 PSI needed to hold 600-800 foot pounds, All this stuff DOES NOT keep the Pump from wearing out eventually from the extreme load of making 295 PSI which is 100 PSI more than it was designed to make.
Over 650 ft lbs, I recommend a Billet Output Shaft, A good 300M Steel Shaft is about $500.
Extra Friction, As you know...Are needed to add capacity to the Clutch Packs, To do this Thinner Frictions & Steels are utilized, Unfortunately this reduces the "Cycling" life of the Clutch, Lets say a stock clutch pack can handle 850,000 cycles, Yours will only handle 500,000, More Frictions equals More Heat build-up when the Friction are Overruning (Not Applied). To compound a already less than ideal situation....Thinner Frictions hold less ATF, Thinner Steels do not absorb & dissipate heat as effectively as Full Thickness Steels.
I don't care for Kevlar Friction Material, Which is probably the Intermediate Band in your unit, It tears up the Direct Drum surface that it rides on, A High Energy Carbon Band would have been a better choice. Kevlar may be good at stopping Bullets but sucks as a Friction Material. It was all the rage a few years ago, But I don't any Pro Builders that still use it today.
200-4R/700-R4/4L60E all have a Clutch-to-Clutch 2-3 shift, The 200-4R just has a better Direct Clutch set-up to handle it.
In 2nd gear the Intermediate Band is Applied holding the Direct Drum stationary, Upon a 2-3 Shift, Direct Oil is routed under the Intermediate Servo to Knock/Force the Band off at the same time the Direct Clutches are applying, The issue is....This is never a PERFECTLY timed event.
Band coming off slow, Directs coming on fast results in a Bind, Shift pattern 2nd-bind-3rd......Band coming off fast, Directs coming on slow results in a Flare, Shift pattern 2nd-1st-3rd, The best scenario is a very slight bind between 2nd & 3rd.
700-R4/4L60E, Band coming off slow, 3-4 Clutch coming on fast results in a 2nd-4th-3rd shift pattern, Other way around equals a Flare, 2nd-1st-3rd.
A Grand National Servo or larger (200-4R) or a Corvette Servo or larger (700-4R/4L60E) helps a ton with the clutch to clutch timing.
A 4L80E doesn't suffer from ANY of these shortcomings.....
The Gear Train is capable of 800 ft lbs in stock form, (Besides the Input Shaft).
The stock Frictions are capable of at least 1000 ft lbs at 220 PSI. '97 & up units come factory with High Energy Carbon Frictions in the Forward, Intermediate, & Direct clutch packs. I have a Trans Brake/Reid Case TH400 with stock Borg Warner 4L80E High Energy Frictions holding 1500 horsepower for 4 seasons now!
They shift "straight through"...NO clutch-to-clutch.
1st-Forward Clutch holding.
2nd-Forward & Intermediate Clutch holding.
3rd-Forward, Intermediate, & Direct Clutch holding.
4th-Forward, Intermediate, Direct, & 4th Clutch holding.
The Pump is capable of making 300+ PSI at a 100% duty cycle for 200,000 miles with little Pump Gear wear, I have never needed more than 230 PSI, The Piston Apply areas are HUGE, It can apply more force at lower pressure.
A 4L80E will fit ANY B-Body with very little hammering on the floor pans, If it doesn't clear at all.....Replace the Body Bushings because they are the culprit, Not the physical size of a 80E.
The Controller is one of the BEST features of running a electronic trans, Change Shift Points/TCC scheduling/Line Pressure Per Gear on the fly from the drivers seat.
No? I have to say I'm quite impressed with mine. (When I got it, the standalone 4L80E was a new thing.) I also recall that a 4L80E in a B-body requires floorpan surgery. I didn't like the TH700's Chevy-only bellhousing and massive 1-2 ratio split.
No, I really don't.....I have to warranty these things if they break, I always just assume that a customer is going too beat the snot out of a transmission if they have a Built Engine.
The 200-4R is a GREAT transmission, But they were not engineered to handle massive amounts of torque in heavy vehicles, Thus the need for aftermarket Input Shaft, Forward Clutch Drum, Overdrive Ring Gear, Overdrive Carrier, & Heat Treated Sun Gear Shell.
To make the pressure needed without the Pump breaking, You need.....A Billet Pump Rotor, Hardened Pump Rings, .555" TV Boost Valve, .300" Reverse/Intermediate Boost Valve, HD Primer Spring & HD PR Spring, Machine the Pump Body & Pump Cover for Perfect clearances to obtain the 295 PSI needed to hold 600-800 foot pounds, All this stuff DOES NOT keep the Pump from wearing out eventually from the extreme load of making 295 PSI which is 100 PSI more than it was designed to make.
Over 650 ft lbs, I recommend a Billet Output Shaft, A good 300M Steel Shaft is about $500.
Extra Friction, As you know...Are needed to add capacity to the Clutch Packs, To do this Thinner Frictions & Steels are utilized, Unfortunately this reduces the "Cycling" life of the Clutch, Lets say a stock clutch pack can handle 850,000 cycles, Yours will only handle 500,000, More Frictions equals More Heat build-up when the Friction are Overruning (Not Applied). To compound a already less than ideal situation....Thinner Frictions hold less ATF, Thinner Steels do not absorb & dissipate heat as effectively as Full Thickness Steels.
I don't care for Kevlar Friction Material, Which is probably the Intermediate Band in your unit, It tears up the Direct Drum surface that it rides on, A High Energy Carbon Band would have been a better choice. Kevlar may be good at stopping Bullets but sucks as a Friction Material. It was all the rage a few years ago, But I don't any Pro Builders that still use it today.
200-4R/700-R4/4L60E all have a Clutch-to-Clutch 2-3 shift, The 200-4R just has a better Direct Clutch set-up to handle it.
In 2nd gear the Intermediate Band is Applied holding the Direct Drum stationary, Upon a 2-3 Shift, Direct Oil is routed under the Intermediate Servo to Knock/Force the Band off at the same time the Direct Clutches are applying, The issue is....This is never a PERFECTLY timed event.
Band coming off slow, Directs coming on fast results in a Bind, Shift pattern 2nd-bind-3rd......Band coming off fast, Directs coming on slow results in a Flare, Shift pattern 2nd-1st-3rd, The best scenario is a very slight bind between 2nd & 3rd.
700-R4/4L60E, Band coming off slow, 3-4 Clutch coming on fast results in a 2nd-4th-3rd shift pattern, Other way around equals a Flare, 2nd-1st-3rd.
A Grand National Servo or larger (200-4R) or a Corvette Servo or larger (700-4R/4L60E) helps a ton with the clutch to clutch timing.
A 4L80E doesn't suffer from ANY of these shortcomings.....
The Gear Train is capable of 800 ft lbs in stock form, (Besides the Input Shaft).
The stock Frictions are capable of at least 1000 ft lbs at 220 PSI. '97 & up units come factory with High Energy Carbon Frictions in the Forward, Intermediate, & Direct clutch packs. I have a Trans Brake/Reid Case TH400 with stock Borg Warner 4L80E High Energy Frictions holding 1500 horsepower for 4 seasons now!
They shift "straight through"...NO clutch-to-clutch.
1st-Forward Clutch holding.
2nd-Forward & Intermediate Clutch holding.
3rd-Forward, Intermediate, & Direct Clutch holding.
4th-Forward, Intermediate, Direct, & 4th Clutch holding.
The Pump is capable of making 300+ PSI at a 100% duty cycle for 200,000 miles with little Pump Gear wear, I have never needed more than 230 PSI, The Piston Apply areas are HUGE, It can apply more force at lower pressure.
A 4L80E will fit ANY B-Body with very little hammering on the floor pans, If it doesn't clear at all.....Replace the Body Bushings because they are the culprit, Not the physical size of a 80E.
The Controller is one of the BEST features of running a electronic trans, Change Shift Points/TCC scheduling/Line Pressure Per Gear on the fly from the drivers seat.
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