That is universally seen as a HUGE failure as far as the police response.You mean like in Texas where the school was surrounded by cops an no one went in, not even the swat team? How much time did they give that young man? He had all the time in the world. Some parents snack in and got their kids out, rightfully so, as law enforcement was not there to serve and protect it seamed, all 376 of them. Yup, 376 officers where there, pretty much a small army and all they did was prevent help.
Wasn’t there a Supreme Court ruling that cops have absolutely no obligation to protect citizens
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/17/law-enforcement-failure-uvalde-shooting-investigation/
Multiple Michigan Swatting Events Today
- Thread starter doitmyself
- Start date
dnewton3
Staff member
Agreed. Even most LEO agencies see it as a failure on many levels.
We've had a few reported active-shooter events in my former jurisdiction.
- school event was no shots fired, but there was a student on campus with a firearm
- worship event ended up being bladed weapons, but not guns; many attacked and hurt but none died
- mall shooting was real; people died
I participated in the first two of the three. I believe we did an outstanding job. Quick response; reasonably coordinated efforts; short duration. Not all agencies stand around with their thumbs up their posteriors. Most act immediately out of a sense of duty; compelled not by law, but by conscience.
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6 days after my original post: literally a stone's throw from the incident I described at this thread's start, there are now 3 dead people and 5 injured in hospital from the Michigan State University active shooter event. I was listening to my scanner as they approached the alleged shooter a few miles away and he shot himself - dead.
This hits home personally. Unbelievable. Beyond comprehension. I locked our doors with my shotgun beside me.
This hits home personally. Unbelievable. Beyond comprehension. I locked our doors with my shotgun beside me.
Suspect dead, 3 killed, 5 injured in Michigan State shooting: What we know
A shooting at Michigan State University left three dead and five people injured Monday evening at the school's East Lansing campus.
www.freep.com
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Unbelievable indeed. Wonder if the prank calls had something to do with it or just simply gave “courage” to this guy to do this.
You raise and excellent point and one that bothers me. Whenever I see the aftermath of a school shooting, I see a ton of cops with AR15s and all the kids with their hands over their heads being marched outside. Every time the shooter was already neutralized. It seems a huge risk having all those riles out and kids scared when the all clear is given and the risk is over. With all those scared kids and hyped up cops there is a risk for someone to do something stupid. I guess that's my question. How do the police or school verify the all clear and de-escalate?
dnewton3
Staff member
It's a fair question.
The answer lays in the fact that, while LEOs can believe the all-clear is truly "all clear", the concept of fault-to-the-side of caution prevails. There are times where LEOs do not know with absolute certainty that the "all clear" is verified. It can be presumed, but often not assured until a full, detailed sweep of the premisis is done, which can take hours.
- how many shooters are there? (panic stricken 911 reports via cell and land line calls often conflate the issues; no one is "sure" and accounts can vary widely. You'd be amazed how badly reports can conflict with each other in real time.) Controlling the outflow of people from the scene helps manage the hysteria. It cannot control the chaos, but it can help funnel it into manageable pieces.
- how many exits were or were not covered? (we don't want the bad guy getting away; also, we try to direct the escaping victims into streams were triage and first-aid can be assessed and given if needed)
- while it is common for the active shooter(s) to take their own lives, the wolves have tried to sneak out with the sheep, and actually have suceeded in a few cases. LEOs are struggling to visually search all the people pouring out of the building; it's a lot to take in all at once.
Also, most LEOs today wear body cameras (not all, but it's ever increasing), and so as those people parade past officers, there's a audio/video record of who came out and when. While it can't be reviewed for accuracy immediately, it's very helpful in post-event fact finding and counting heads, etc.
My point is that one can assume the shooter is "neutralized", but that's not always the case. And in the sense of being safer than sorry, all people are sent out with hands up into contained areas, or at least funneled past control points. The kids are not coming out when the "all clear" is given; that often happens hours after a full and comprehensive building search is done and many key witnesses have been interviewed. The people are coming out ASAP to increase their safety and reduce the elements inside the active search zone(s).
It's very hard to control these kinds of incidents as they happen. In fact, I'm not really sure "control" is the operative word. It's a matter of trying to reduce further injury and contain/eliminate the threat.
This is pretty much how my training at my agency went:
- the first officer(s) responds immediately to the threat; the first one(s) on scene is/are in charge until seniority staff arrives
* if the threat is ongoing and shots are being fired, you run towards the sounds of shots and screaming
* if the threat is not located, but also not actively shooting (making locating the shooter(s) difficult), you start sweeping your route and do your best to ask quick questions of the people inside, such as "which direction did the shots come from?" and "do you have any idea what the shooter was wearing?
* the first LEO(s) on scene are trying to manage a lot of incoming intel, coordinate with dispatch, AND find the shooter, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. It is incredily easy to arm-chair QB this after the fact, but in real time, it's a complete and total goat rodeo.
- as more LEOs arrive, you start a grid search that makes the most sense of the building characteristics
* it may be by directional or vertical (zig zag pattern? floor by floor? etc)
- as yet more resources arrive, you set up triage zones and stage medical personnel
* if the threat has been located, you can coordinate the response to concentrate there if the threat is still viable
* if the threat has not been located, you use more and more resources and split the responding units into zones as determined by the command staff which hopefully has showed up by this time
I think the most terrifying thing would be to assume the situation is "all clear" only to find out that a secondary shooter is still present in a coordinated attack, or that there are explosive secondary elements present. The "all clear" can take several hours to come AFTER the event starts.
Most simply stated, but in no way simply achieved, you try to do these simultaneously:
- stop the threat
- get the people to safety
- contain/arrest the threat if still alive
Then you try to do these things:
- assure no secondary threats are present
- get medical assistance to those who need it (some are ambulatory and can get out; others are wounded inside and need help in place)
- preserve any critical evidence
In a school there may be some reasonable guess as to how many people were present that day (class attendance records). But there's no such thing in a mall or open public place; which makes accounting for all potential victims even more difficult.
The "all clear" comes after those things above are reasonably assured.
Hope that sheds some light into the thoughts at the scene.
Also realize that each LEO entity will prioritize all these above into the nuances which best fit their challenges and strengths, their resources, their training partners, the physical constraints at the scene, and so on ...
Rifles are inanimate objects. They are not a problem.
Thanks for the explanation. I think we're all in agreement that
If current thinking is doing what is described above is the best way to achieve that then that is the best thing to do.
I don't have access to this article but the introduction captures my sentiment better than I could write.
School shooting response: Why we need to evaluate evacuation
Evacuation aims to move students from a high-risk environment to a low-risk environment, but is this the right tactic during an active shooter event?
www.police1.com
JHZR2
Staff member
And surely you had “bomb scares”… I remember those - difference being back then there were payohones that were probably not monitored.
One of the VERY big challenges for LEO's in this MSU situation was the detrimental effects of social media and the HUGE number of "tips" called in to 911 during the active event. Tens of thousands of people were tuned in to the police scanner via phone apps.. 100's of tips were called in to 911based on rumors exaggerated on social media. The LEO's had to evaluate every single tip called in. In one instance, the police scanner was abuzz with the false tip that shooting continued in a third location. Ironically, the suspect was found about 4 miles away (walked) because a observant citizen called in a tip of someone matching the suspect's description.
I really stopped trusting our authorities and news telling us the truth about much anything. Look at how much they made of Jan...........
Point is, sometimes you just don't know unless you are/were there. In person.
Point is, sometimes you just don't know unless you are/were there. In person.
It’s a slow, but sure way of converting our youth from free thinking individuals into obeying and not questioning robotons.
Remember it’s all for your safety. Even if they point a rifle at your head, it’s for your own safety. You drill this into a young mind and it will be hard to get out.
Not blaming the police here, they are just tools the hands of others. “Just doing my job” right?
No not one. My graduation class had 42 students
dnewton3
Staff member
In a catastrophic event such as those we discuss here, EVERYONE'S safety is paramount. The victims and the First Responders all have a desire to survive. Even the shooters have a right to life, if they were to surrender.
A little bit of a tactial clarification here. I've not seen any images of LEOs with firearms pointed directly at the head of every single person exiting a building. There's a concept called "low ready", where the LEOs firearm is deployed in a quick-ready state, but not directly sight-aimed. I've seen that "low ready" stace frequently in these situations, and I do believe it's the appropriate position to take. Leaving your Glock in your holster or your AR in your trunk at an active shooter event is being unprepared. Being "ready" is proper response. If a threat escalates, you then raise your line-of-sight aim and decide if shots are warranted.
But this is a matter of control first and feelings second. Is it scary to have a weapon pointed at you? Absolutely it is. But given the alternative, that of evil doing continued violence by masquerading as an innocent victim past the control points, I must say that deferring to "safe rather than sorry" means some people are going to get their feelings hurt. So be it.
I think what many people don't get is just how incredibly chaotic and spastic these events can be. It is nothing but total confusion. As I said, I've been directly involved in responses to two of these type events. News Flash: There is no perfect response to these events. You can and should strive to be and do the very best you can as a responder, but there's always a caveat waiting around the corner; something you didn't see or know about that would change your perspective. You go with what you know at the split-second in time and the rest comes out in the wash. Practicing active shooter events with multiple agencies is a great way to improve the responses; it hones the coordination between elements and also makes for quicker response times. But in the end, it is really all about reactions; there's nothing proactive about these types of events as they happen in real life. The "proactive" part is training. But when these events occur; it's all reactive. You're reacting to many inputs (perhaps hundreds of them) which come flying into the situation all at the same time. If LEOs point a gun at someone at one of these events, it's not because they are getting off on a power trip; they're trying to make sure that the violence which did happen, doesn't continue to happen.
Cops have ZERO idea of who the bad guys are with certainty as the event is unfolding. For all we know, there could be an element of multiple bad actors and one or more is trying to slip out with the innocents. So everyone is a suspect as the event unfolds. That's because the alternative choice would be irresponsible; that of letting a "victim" (perpetrator) sneak past you just to engage in violence past the control point.
There are concepts and detailed response techniques I'll not discuss here; things we LEOs discuss in private that we don't divulge to the public. This is because we don't want to encourage or advise bad actors to understand how we prepare and deal with these events. Some things may seem hap-hazard but are calculated based upon considerations not seen by the public, and/or as a precursor to reducing the potential of other more heinous concerns.
It’s your training and protocols, I get it. But dismissing the psychological impact on the KIDS as “some people’s feelings being hurt” shows that your training is the way of looking at this from a broader perspective. The end justifies the means. Pure tactical training, nothing more.
That’s how you remove humanity from the enforcers. It has been done numerous times in the past. Don’t want to mention specifics, but I’m sure which past I’m talking about 1939-1945.
That’s how you remove humanity from the enforcers. It has been done numerous times in the past. Don’t want to mention specifics, but I’m sure which past I’m talking about 1939-1945.
Swatting- the caller had hit HUNDREDS of schools all around this nation for months. He/she did it for months. He hid behind a VPN with 256 bit encryption. There was NO way to track the suspect and catch them, unless they made a mistake. Not the CIA, the FBI, the DIA or any other three letter agency could crack that 256 bit encryption. I believe I heard that a suspect had been finally caught after making a mistake , and thus, the calls nationwide have finally died down or come to a stop (mostly).
As to guy in this thread pooping on the cops, and just offering ill informed opinions about stuff you don’t understand… cool. The AR15 is the best tool in the arsenal to combat an active shooter. If your local cops are responding to an active shooter and don’t have an AR15 in their hands, well that sucks. The guns are safe at the low ready position. The safety is kept on safe. They will never fire until the officer flips the safety off and then presses the trigger. I could care less about appearances. Give the officers the best tool for the job.
I’m prior LEO and actually work in school security now. Banning guns and limiting the carrying of weapons to police officers only in schools was a drastic mistake. There isn’t enough of them. Plus as Parkland and Texas showed us, cops can make mistakes and not respond appropriately. Every school should have an armed officer , as well as several armed coaches, guidance counselors, teachers, janitors, security officers…. whomever. If they have the skill, ability, and willingness to protect children , then the red tape needs cut and they should be allowed to do so.
Best practice nowadays is an armed officer on every campus, with a readily available rifle, carried on their person. I’d like to see that expanded to include any staff member that wants to carry.
Kids having hurt feelings over the (gasp) sight of an armed officer carrying an AR15 rifle?! Dude? Are you serious. I’m pretty sure they would rather see armed officers than a bunch of bloody bodies in the hallways.
As to guy in this thread pooping on the cops, and just offering ill informed opinions about stuff you don’t understand… cool. The AR15 is the best tool in the arsenal to combat an active shooter. If your local cops are responding to an active shooter and don’t have an AR15 in their hands, well that sucks. The guns are safe at the low ready position. The safety is kept on safe. They will never fire until the officer flips the safety off and then presses the trigger. I could care less about appearances. Give the officers the best tool for the job.
I’m prior LEO and actually work in school security now. Banning guns and limiting the carrying of weapons to police officers only in schools was a drastic mistake. There isn’t enough of them. Plus as Parkland and Texas showed us, cops can make mistakes and not respond appropriately. Every school should have an armed officer , as well as several armed coaches, guidance counselors, teachers, janitors, security officers…. whomever. If they have the skill, ability, and willingness to protect children , then the red tape needs cut and they should be allowed to do so.
Best practice nowadays is an armed officer on every campus, with a readily available rifle, carried on their person. I’d like to see that expanded to include any staff member that wants to carry.
Kids having hurt feelings over the (gasp) sight of an armed officer carrying an AR15 rifle?! Dude? Are you serious. I’m pretty sure they would rather see armed officers than a bunch of bloody bodies in the hallways.
If I see tyrannical behavior masquerading as safety I will definitely rag on it. If few cops/ex-cops feelings get hurt so be it.
These kids didn’t know discipline, corrective actions, or just plain getting their ***es beat when they were kids and lost their tempers. They’re also used to getting participation trophies for everything, so when presented with rejection or failure, they lose their dam minds and take their anger out on innocents.
We need to bring back mental hospitals and properly help people with antisocial behaviors like this. It’s obvious that the “love and accept everyone regardless of their psychosis” is getting people hurt and killed!
I know you didn't ask me, but there are at least 4 nasty bills, maybe more in WA state house/senate aimed right at all legal citizens in a very controlling manner and all of them are masquerading as "safety" and not one of them will help with crime and will simply turn otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals