Multi-Vehicle Autoatic Transmission Fluids

[MolaKule]

A question was aked in a previous thread:


Quote:
"...how does a multi-application fluid address two completely different sets of FM needs?"

That is the source of my confusion. How can one product like MaxLife Dex/Merc provide the same transmission shifting characteristics as:

" DEXRON, DEXRON II, III and VI, Toyota T-IV and WS, MERCON®, MERCON® SP and LV, Allison TES 389, Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J and Matic-K, Honda Z-1 (except CVT), Mercedes NAG-1, Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II and SP-III and many others"?



Because of the static and dynamic friction charateristics of the clutch plate (friction surface) materials.

In the early days of AT's it was purely cellose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.

Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and aramid fibers.

Many of the clutch materials are close in static and dynamic friction coefficients .

When an additive company tests it's ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.

The velocity verses friction characteristics (U-n) are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.

The appropriate FM additive levels are then determined for the complete additive package.

See these other threads for more information on ATF's.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530861#Post530861

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530806#Post530806

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1111352#Post1111352

http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729051#Post729051

 

[Capa]

Great info, Molakule. When it comes to ATF, coolant, brake fluid, etc, a very common question is whether universal fluids suffice. There are respectable people on both sides of the fence. Of course, some companies that make universal fluids claim that not only do their fluids suffice, but actually excel. Again, thanks for the info.

 

[JHZR2]

So if they are close or effectively the same, then there is zero reason to have different specifications.

Why don't all the manufacturers stick (for the most part at least) to dexrons like they did in the past, or, have an API/ACEA "T" spec for fluids that is universally relevant like for oils?

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
So if they are close or effectively the same, then there is zero reason to have different specifications.

Why don't all the manufacturers stick (for the most part at least) to dexrons like they did in the past, or, have an API/ACEA "T" spec for fluids that is universally relevant like for oils?


My theory is it is partly marketing and partly dealer profits.

The question was how can a UATF cover so many specs and I answered that.

The other side of the equation is CAFE, oxidation stability, and friction retention.

For example, DexronVI(R) was developed for enhanced fuel mileage (lower viscosity of 2 cSt Kinetic Viscosity), oxidation resistance (for 100k factory fills), and friction modifier retention characteristics.

A UATF or multi-vehicle ATF additive does not meet those criteria.


Here are the specs from one multi-vehicle additive package:

Quote:
XXX is a multi-vehicle automatic transmission fluid (ATF) additive package with VI improver. XXX has been formulated to be suitable for use as a Service-Fill ATF additive for step-automatic transmissions calling for Toyota T-III and T-IV, Honda Z1, Nissan Matic D and Matic J, and Mitsubishi SP-II and SP-III performance. XXX also meets the requirements of JASO 1A and other Asian OEM's like Hyundai, Subaru and Mazda. It is formulated to meet the design requirements of Ford and GM vehicles that do not require a low viscosity fluid (e.g. models 2005 and earlier), and Allison C-4. In addition, it meets the requirements of European OEM's like ZF TE-ML-14A,Voith 55.6335, MAN 339 Type Z-1 and MB, VW and BMW 4-and 5-speed automatic transmission specifications.


So it doesn't cover DexronVI(R) specifications and a blender should not claim any specification or coverage beyond what the spec sheet shows.

As to why a universal ATF specification has not emerged, you would have to ask the European OEM's.

 

[MolaKule]

I expect further, newer ATF specifications in the future since some transmission manufacturers are building transmissions that use 4.8 cSt fluids for even better mileage.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
In the early days of AT's it was purely cellose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.



I should hve mentioned that later deveolpments had asbestos fibers imbedded were used but as we know, asbestos was outlawed.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So this explains why Pentosin DE told me ATF1 was ok for my ZF6HP on a 30k mile

 

[MolaKule]

Give us a little background: Is ATF1 Pentosin's UATF?

And ZF6HP, there are many automotive acronyms floating around so please explain.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Give us a little background: Is ATF1 Pentosin's UATF?

And ZF6HP, there are many automotive acronyms floating around so please explain.


Conversation I had with a Pento employee. I asked about ATF1 for the ZF6HP(ZF 6 spd auto) since the only "official" fluid was ZF Lifeguard 6. He was an old german guy who had an affinity for Porsches.

ATF1 is close to being a universal atf. I think they have a Dex product as well. They've since cornered the market on dual clutch ATF (3-4 versions).

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
They've since cornered the market on dual clutch ATF (3-4 versions).


You bring up an interesting topic about dual clutch and Chrysler's ATF3-4.

One of the reasons ATF+3 and +4 was developed was to add an extra measure of friction modification to cushion the shifting and more gently control engagement of the dual clutch system.

The CSTCC's also required a more comprehensive FM package as well.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530861#Post530861

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
They've since cornered the market on dual clutch ATF (3-4 versions).

You bring up an interesting topic about dual clutch and Chrysler's ATF3-4.

I believe that he's talking about Pentosin cornering the FFL oils for Porsche, BMW & VAG. FFL 2 through FFL 4.
http://pentosin.net/f_transmissionfluid.asp

On a side note, many GTR owners have reported that the BMW oil (Pentosin FFL 4) works very well in the Nissan and can be had at 1/4 the price. The wear issues in the GTR tranny all seem to stem from poor temp control / filtration and not changing the OEM fill soon enough.

 

[MolaKule]

For those of you interested in rebuilding or just getting into AT's, here is a good intro:

http://www.familycar.com/Transmission.htm

Also, if further interested, I would work with someone who is experienced rebuilding a transmission, or spend some time in a tranny rebuilding shop (with the owner's permission) and observe the rebuild process.

Wear a shop apron and be prepared to get your hands soaked in ATF.