Moly oil treatment thoughts?

[Mixologist]

Hi guys, in looking at bullet lubes that could be suspended in an oil (so you could patch your barrel instead of impact coat individual bullets) I ran into this company {removed non site sponsor link. Also this link has bogus contact info so BEWARE} which piqued my interest in terms of being an additive for engine oil.

Basically it's a volume of powered moly that you add to your engine oil and the company claims it'll coat via heat/pressure everything it comes in contact with.

What are you're thoughts on this and is the logic of simply adding powdered moly to oil sound?

I tried searching the forums but didn't find much.

Here's a quote from the site:


What causes it to plate:

Examining the principles of hydrodynamic lubrication (just a technical name for using oil and greases to do a job). Hydrodynamic lubrication exists when all the asperities (microscopic hills and valleys) of the parts being lubricated are separated by a layer (film) of fluid (oil or grease). The ideal situation is no metal to metal contact and therefore no wear. But, and this is a big one, under sufficient pressure and heat the oil film is squeezed out and the metal surfaces begin to get together. When such a dangerous situation occurs the result will be very high local spot temperature rises which causes a lubrication failure. The result of lubrication failure is galling and scoring of bearings and piston rings which causes high oil consumption or complete failure of parts effected. So how does Moly help with such a problem?

Remembering what we stated above, Moly has the extraordinary affinity to stick to metal, especially if rubbed in. It does not dissolve in oil or grease, It is possible to grind Moly only so small, .35 micron (one micron equals a millionth of a meter). The particles remain suspended in liquids, such as oil, grease, glycol, water and alcohol. When the treatment is added to crankcase oil, temperature and pressure cause instantaneous reaction between Moly and bearing metal, and a low friction solid film is formed to keep the bearing surfaces from actually touching. This plating is firmed by thermo-chemical reaction and it is continuously supplied to the friction surfaces of the engine or equipment parts by being suspended in the fluid lubricant. The Moly solid film friction plating is extremely durable-probably the only method of removal is to grind it off. Because Moly is a lubricant, it is possible for two Moly plated parts such as a bearing and a shaft to run for an indefinite period of time without a fluid oil.

 

[chubbs1]

I sure would like to hear what Molekule thinks.

(.35 microns)!?!? That is tremendously small. Hard to believe unless they got it from an actual additive Co.

Sounds Bogus

 

[The_Intimidator]

They charge way more per vial than it cost to buy powdered MoS2 from a supplier. I bought a pound of it for 50$. There is 2.6 grams of moly in their vials they sell compared to the 440+ grams for 50$. 11 cents a gram vs almost 2$ a gram?? Do the math, molyforoil.com is wayyy more expensive. The company I bought from is called rosemill, and you want the 1.5 micron stuff. They even say it is the stuff to throw in your crankcase. I have used it so far for thousands of miles and my engine runs like a dream. I can do the PPM calculation for you on how many grams of the powder to add per qt, or per your entire sump if you do order from rosemill.

 

[Mixologist]

Originally Posted By: The_Intimidator
They charge way more per vial than it cost to buy powdered MoS2 from a supplier.

I can do the PPM calculation for you on how many grams of the powder to add per qt, or per your entire sump if you do order from rosemill.


Well in fairness they are out to make a profit and no doubt have to pay for the plastic vials and the website but I bet they get it from the same place you did.

Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size? Would you bump the concentration up if you suspended it into a basic mineral oil for use in a gun barrel?

Thanks in advance!

Thanks!

 

[JHZR2]

Smaller particles are always better, though physical instabilities can become much more severe when milled down too small!

I think these kinds of additives rely on turbulent mixing in the sump to whip the particles up. One can calculate settling time based upon particle size, particle density and time, assuming some viscosity (which is more complex for a heated oil). Remember stoke's law.

Nothing is ideal, I doubt that the "without fluid oil" is very accurate, and the liquid serves certain heat transfer requirements as well.

Particles that small may have severe health effects too in terms of absorption through the skin and especially inhalation.

putting it dry on bullets?? Id want to do some scuf/rub tests and see what comes off. I would want small moly but I sure wouldnt want it on my skin or in the offgas that Im breathing.

 

[yesthatsteve]

Originally Posted By: Mixologist

Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size?


I did the math and came up with about 180mg per quart, assuming a few things:

1. Calculated PPM by weight (making particle size irrelevant)
2. Assumed a target concentration of 220 PPM (IIRC, another thread showed a significant decrease in returns above that point)
3. Assumed no moly in the virgin oil
4. Used the density of PYB (.864kg/liter = .817kg/quart)

1,000,000mg = 1kg
220 PPM = 220mg/kg

220mg/kg x .817kg/qt = 179.74mg/qt

At that rate, a pound of MoS2 powder will last me over 50 years!

Then again, my calculations may be totally wrong.

 

[The_Intimidator]

Ok, here we go. I have done these calculations over and over again for friends cars, so it's quite simple to do whatever anyone on here asks for. The average PPM of moly in a very high quality oil (that even has moly) is anywhere from 200 PPM to 800 PPM. I personally did my first oil fill with about 1000 PPM of moly to help get the plating going, and then do about 500 PPM for oil changes after. If i remember correctly, Lubro Moly's additive in a 300ml bottle contains 4600 PPM of Moly. Putting this entire bottle into your car only jacks the moly in the oil up to around 250 PPM which is much less than what we want for "Super Oil". To get 1000 PPM in a quart of oil is the easiest to do in my head since the math is real simple;
To achieve 1000 PPM of moly, add .839 grams of powder to one quart. So for a 5qt sump, 4.19 grams is needed. This is just under what one teaspoon of the powder would yield. For maintenance doses of 500PPM, only half is needed. This gives about 100 treatments per pound of powder, and that's if you go for 1000 PPM.
This is for the 1.5 micron size. There is ZERO chance they have .35 micron particles for THAT product. There is another supplier that sells it that small, and it is not 50$, but more like 2000$. Anything under our best oil filters capacity is money anyway, which i believe Mobil filters only go down to 7 microns where this is 1.5. This will not fall out of suspension with normal or even light driving. If you left your car for over a year, as soon as you start it up again the moly will quickly return to suspension.

As far as usage for coating bullets, I am terribly ignorant in the firearms department (I am a 23 yr old Biomedical Engineer living in NJ, I have NEVER even held a real gun let alone a bullet). If you want to make a nice paste to coat the bullets, I believe this link SHOULD help. It has about 15 pages on moly for oil and for bullets.

http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic....a43ef9906850dc4

Here is rosemills link

http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/24.htm

BTW, Rosemill is the supplier for this company haha.

 

[The_Intimidator]

Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
Originally Posted By: Mixologist

Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size?


I did the math and came up with about 180mg per quart, assuming a few things:

1. Calculated PPM by weight (making particle size irrelevant)
2. Assumed a target concentration of 220 PPM (IIRC, another thread showed a significant decrease in returns above that point)
3. Assumed no moly in the virgin oil
4. Used the density of PYB (.864kg/liter = .817kg/quart)

1,000,000mg = 1kg
220 PPM = 220mg/kg

220mg/kg x .817kg/qt = 179.74mg/qt

At that rate, a pound of MoS2 powder will last me over 50 years!

Then again, my calculations may be totally wrong.

Nope, they are right.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Mixologist


Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size? Would you bump the concentration up if you suspended it into a basic mineral oil for use in a gun barrel?


Are you talking ppmv or ppmw? weight it is irrelevant, volume we need to know the nature of the shapes of the particles - spheres, platelets, etc. I almost think that as a bullet lube you want ppmv.

The math is simple.

 

[FMC]

{removed non site sponsor link}

 

[mechtech2]

You want MoSo2, not just pure moly.

 

[The_Intimidator]

This is MoS2 we are talking about, not pure moly. The powder Rosemill sold me is ultra-fine MoS2. It will not plate without the sulfide.

 

[yesthatsteve]

Originally Posted By: The_Intimidator
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
Originally Posted By: Mixologist

Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size?


I did the math and came up with about 180mg per quart, assuming a few things:

1. Calculated PPM by weight (making particle size irrelevant)
2. Assumed a target concentration of 220 PPM (IIRC, another thread showed a significant decrease in returns above that point)
3. Assumed no moly in the virgin oil
4. Used the density of PYB (.864kg/liter = .817kg/quart)

1,000,000mg = 1kg
220 PPM = 220mg/kg

220mg/kg x .817kg/qt = 179.74mg/qt

At that rate, a pound of MoS2 powder will last me over 50 years!

Then again, my calculations may be totally wrong.

Nope, they are right.


That's good to know. It's been over 25 years since I changed my major from engineering. I guess some things just stick.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: The_Intimidator
Ok, here we go. I have done these calculations over and over again for friends cars, so it's quite simple to do whatever anyone on here asks for. The average PPM of moly in a very high quality oil (that even has moly) is anywhere from 200 PPM to 800 PPM. I personally did my first oil fill with about 1000 PPM of moly to help get the plating going, and then do about 500 PPM for oil changes after. If i remember correctly, Lubro Moly's additive in a 300ml bottle contains 4600 PPM of Moly. Putting this entire bottle into your car only jacks the moly in the oil up to around 250 PPM which is much less than what we want for "Super Oil". To get 1000 PPM in a quart of oil is the easiest to do in my head since the math is real simple;
To achieve 1000 PPM of moly, add .839 grams of powder to one quart. So for a 5qt sump, 4.19 grams is needed. This is just under what one teaspoon of the powder would yield. For maintenance doses of 500PPM, only half is needed. This gives about 100 treatments per pound of powder, and that's if you go for 1000 PPM.
This is for the 1.5 micron size. There is ZERO chance they have .35 micron particles for THAT product. There is another supplier that sells it that small, and it is not 50$, but more like 2000$. Anything under our best oil filters capacity is money anyway, which i believe Mobil filters only go down to 7 microns where this is 1.5. This will not fall out of suspension with normal or even light driving. If you left your car for over a year, as soon as you start it up again the moly will quickly return to suspension.

As far as usage for coating bullets, I am terribly ignorant in the firearms department (I am a 23 yr old Biomedical Engineer living in NJ, I have NEVER even held a real gun let alone a bullet). If you want to make a nice paste to coat the bullets, I believe this link SHOULD help. It has about 15 pages on moly for oil and for bullets.

http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic....a43ef9906850dc4

Here is rosemills link

http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/24.htm

BTW, Rosemill is the supplier for this company haha.


I'm no math wiz, and I'm positive your math is correct. Here is what I find odd. I use the Rosemill MoS2 for coating bullets the product works very well. Prior to buying Lubro Moly MoS2 I made my own with the Rosemill product. Adding even 3 teaspoons to 10 ounces of oil and blending it through the finished product looks nothing like the Lubro Moly product, it looks like the concentration in the home blend is a lot less. Nothing scientific, but if looks mean anything the Lubro Moly product appears to have more moly than 3 teaspoons of powdered MoS2, which BTW works great!

 

[The_Intimidator]

Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
Originally Posted By: The_Intimidator
Originally Posted By: yesthatsteve
Originally Posted By: Mixologist

Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size?


I did the math and came up with about 180mg per quart, assuming a few things:

1. Calculated PPM by weight (making particle size irrelevant)
2. Assumed a target concentration of 220 PPM (IIRC, another thread showed a significant decrease in returns above that point)
3. Assumed no moly in the virgin oil
4. Used the density of PYB (.864kg/liter = .817kg/quart)

1,000,000mg = 1kg
220 PPM = 220mg/kg

220mg/kg x .817kg/qt = 179.74mg/qt

At that rate, a pound of MoS2 powder will last me over 50 years!

Then again, my calculations may be totally wrong.

Nope, they are right.


That's good to know. It's been over 25 years since I changed my major from engineering. I guess some things just stick.

Badda Bing Baby. Us Engineers have to stick together.

 

[Mixologist]

Quote:
Edited by Bill in Utah (07/21/11 06:26 PM)
Edit Reason: changed subject and removed non site sponsor link


Whoops, sorry. I didn't know you couldn't post a link. However, I doubt any of us would buy anything from them anyway.

 

[Mixologist]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mixologist


Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size? Would you bump the concentration up if you suspended it into a basic mineral oil for use in a gun barrel?


I almost think that as a bullet lube you want ppmv.


Well so far as the bullet part goes, I was actually thinking weight because with figures in weight I can use all of my bullet making scales to measure weights of MOS2 (no good way to measure volume here at home) but if I were to try to suspend the MOS2 in oil I think ppmv would be the better option. Honestly, I don't know that the exact numbers matter all that much in the gun barrel case as I think I'm going to just soak a patch with an oil/MOS2 mixture and run the patch down the barrel to give it a light coating, in effect using the oil to simply hold the MOS2 against the I.D. of the barrel in a ~homogeneous way. I'll report back on this experiment) usually MOS2 is tumble (impact) applied as a dry lube to the surface of a bullet so this will be new to me.

 

[Mixologist]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Prior to buying Lubro Moly MoS2 I made my own with the Rosemill product. Adding even 3 teaspoons to 10 ounces of oil and blending it through the finished product looks nothing like the Lubro Moly product,


Demarpaint, how are you applying/using your oil/Moly mixture? Do you patch the barrel with the mixture and if you do when do you start to see copper fouling?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mixologist
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Prior to buying Lubro Moly MoS2 I made my own with the Rosemill product. Adding even 3 teaspoons to 10 ounces of oil and blending it through the finished product looks nothing like the Lubro Moly product,


Demarpaint, how are you applying/using your oil/Moly mixture? Do you patch the barrel with the mixture and if you do when do you start to see copper fouling?


I started with a clean barrel, then ran a patch of MMO down it. I cleaned my bullets with an ultra sonic cleaner, then impact tumbled my bullets and fired them down the barrel. That transfers the moly and burnishes it into the barrel. Once applied the MoS2 is very difficult to remove, and cleaning the barrel of powder fouling and copper fouling is very easy. Once the barrel has a coating of moly laid down as mentioned above, all you need to do is fire a few fouling shots and you're back to your dialed in setting. It takes less fouling shots to get on target again. Some people mix MoS2 with alcohol and patch that down the barrel, I like the idea of coating the bullets and seasoning the barrel that way. JMO

I found there is less fouling with the use of Moly coated bullets and barrel cleaning is easier.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Mixologist
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mixologist


Would you mind doing a gram/qt engine oil calculation for us assuming the 1.5 and the .35 micron size? Would you bump the concentration up if you suspended it into a basic mineral oil for use in a gun barrel?


I almost think that as a bullet lube you want ppmv.


Well so far as the bullet part goes, I was actually thinking weight because with figures in weight I can use all of my bullet making scales to measure weights of MOS2 (no good way to measure volume here at home) but if I were to try to suspend the MOS2 in oil I think ppmv would be the better option. Honestly, I don't know that the exact numbers matter all that much in the gun barrel case as I think I'm going to just soak a patch with an oil/MOS2 mixture and run the patch down the barrel to give it a light coating, in effect using the oil to simply hold the MOS2 against the I.D. of the barrel in a ~homogeneous way. I'll report back on this experiment) usually MOS2 is tumble (impact) applied as a dry lube to the surface of a bullet so this will be new to me.


For this you can kind of mathematically change between once you dial in what works.

But my thought is that you know barrel surface area and you know how much roughly you applied to the patch, so assuming some % of wipeoff, you know that youve put down so much surface area of Mo on the barrel. Using ppmv you can probably calculate coverage area assuming some "wipeoff" assumptions.