Moly, MoS2, Molybdenum Disulphide

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Moribundman,
Why to distrust manufacturer ? It uses MoS2 in many of its oils and does not hide this. It aslo makes an additive with MoS2. There is a number of booklets showing how its good and naturally no a word about disadvantages. To say rought LM has two lines of oils: with MoS2 and without it.
 
Hey Primus, we hear here all the time how MoS2 in oil isn't a good idea, because it's not soluble. If MoS2 is really not a good additive, or if it's snake oil at best, why should I trust a manufacturer who pushes it?

The LM MoS2 engine treatment is very popular. So, does MoS2 as an additive make sense, or doesn't it? Is it really MoS2 in the LM engine treatment? Is there possibly any other form of moly in there, maybe in addition to MoS2? The statement that an LM product contains Moly is inclusive. It doesn't mean it doesn't contain also another form moly.

I'm well aware that not all LM products containing moly. I've repeatedly said on these forums that Liqui Moly is simply the name of the company, while Lubro Moly is the name of the product, regardless of moly content or lack thereof.

Keep in mind LM is a German company. I dare you to go in any German auto parts store and ask for an engine oil or oil additve containing MoDTC. They simply won't know what you are talking about. If you ask for "MoS zwei," they'll know.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
If MoS2 is really not a good additive, or if it's snake oil at best, why should I trust a manufacturer who pushes it?

I meant why to distruct manufacture if it claims to have MoS2 as solid lubricant in some of its products (not all). Recently LM launched new oil under the name "Molygen". This one may be with MoDTC.

As for how MoS2 is good or bad, I have read about negatives sides and shall never use it myself. Our car magazine tested Liqui-Moly MoS2 Leichtlauf 10W-40 and Marly Black Gold Carat 10W-40 with graphite (both ACEA certified) and found decrease in wear, lower friction and temperature. Negative: oils are less stable (but nothing critical in standard conditions). In case of 2 % gas or water (not standard, but quite usual in countries with aged car park and bad gas), oil stability was considerably lower. Altavista will help to read:

http://arch.zr.ru/articles/88_04_2000.html
 
Primus, my question was rhetorical. I'm not trying to deconstruct Liqui Moly. In fact, each time I brought up LM in the past, the attacks on LM started, because of its MoS2 content. I wonder why this time around nobody says "MoS2 is bad"?

LIQUI MOLY GmbH
Roland Braun
Jerg-Wieland-Str. 4
89081 Ulm-Lehr
Fon: 0731/1420-927
Fax: 0731/1420-922
[email protected]

I checked around on German sites and according to what I found that's really MoS2 in certain LM products: http://www.liqui-moly.de/web/lmhomede.nsf/pages/mos2-leichtlauf
 
quote:

Originally posted by dropitby:
So this post: Schaffers is usually 120-150 ppm MoS2.

No. Not molybdendum disulfide powder. It does have liquid, oil soluble molybdenum DialkylDithiocarbamate.

The usual cheap oil analysis only finds elemental molybdenum. It can't tell which form.


Ken
 
quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

OK... From what I understand one cannot test for MoS2. You can only test for the presence of the Molybdenum atom. So you do not know in what kind of molecule it is bound in.

So Royal Purple does contain Molybdenum atoms(That are bound to "something"), but it is unknown if they are actually MoS2 molecules.

Are these statements correct?

Pretty much.

In MoDTC, the moly atoms are bound to carbon and sulfur atoms; hence Molybdenum Dithiocarbamate. In chemistry, the Thio part refers to the fact that sulfur atoms replace the oxygen atoms in a reaction, and you don't necessarily have just 2 sulfur atoms per moly atom.

In MoS2 powders, there is one moly atom bound to two sulfur atoms.

In Royal Purple (or any main stream motor oil that uses moly) you can rest assured the moly is the soluble form of moly or MoDTC.

To be technically correct, the soluble form of moly is Molybdenum Di-Alkyl dithiocarbamate.

This is a stabilized and alkylated form of moly. An alkylated molecule is stabilized against acid production.

I hope this explanation helps.


Thanks MolaKule!!! That's exactly what I was looking for!
 
This is old but I came across, once again, some Amsoil dealer confusing the public on moly on one of the Subaru forums. Someone posted an Amsoil quote claiming moly is not good for extended drains and how their 20w-50 racing oil is superior to Royal Purples. This was from Amsoil tech it appeared also. This was RP's response:


quote:

The statement from this company is misleading; we have seen this before
as it appears to be a cut-and-paste response to inquiries they receive
in regard to Royal Purple. Let's dissect the technical merit of the
statement. The first point which needs correction is in regard to Royal
Purple containing moly; or molybdenum. the information goes on to
state the potential problems with moly disulfide. Both of these
statement are true, however, moly molybdenum does not always equate to
moly disulfide. This is jumping to a false conclusion. One might expect
an independent oil manufacturer to be able to decipher this. Either they
can't, or they could be intentionally misleading the unknowing public -
notice how, at no point, does this wordsmith state RP contains moly
disulfide. Royal Purple does not use moly disulfide in any formulations.
The molybdenum used sparingly i.e formulations is not a solid, it is a synthetic, oil soluble molybdenum
compound which is not susceptible to issues associated with MoS2 such as
settling and/ or agglomerating as speculated.

In regard to their in house test sequences, let's utilize the first rule
of critical thinking: consider the source. Any test procedures will have
repeat and reproducibility margins of error which allow results to be
misrepresented taking one product's largest wear scar and comparing to
another's smallest. These margins in the four-ball wear test D4172,
per ASTM definition, are .12mm repeatability and .28mm reproducibility
which is significant when you factor in their results.

The figure reported on the viscosity index of the RP 20W50 racing oil is
not accurate. The VI ,Viscosity Index, of Royal Purple's racing 20W50 or
Racing 51 is >180; significantly higher than what was reported. We
believe that these results are from some used 20W50 from 5-7 years ago.
Our API 20W50 has a VI typical of 138.

The figures on volatility appear to be significantly skewed as well. The
test sequence we use for QC of our anti-oxidation properties is called
TFOUT, thin-film oxygen uptake, ASTM D4742. In TFOUT testing, our engine
oils exceed 1200 minutes. Although we typically do not use test
sequences as a part of marketing efforts, we have tested other products
in TFOUT testing for comparison. Typically other synthetics will fail
within 300 to 500 minutes in TFOUT testing; we have seen Amsoil's TRO
20W50 advertised in that range.

Regardless, one can bench race lubricants forever and never reach a
valid conclusion. We prefer to compare using applications for which the
products were intended. On the Royal Purple website is a summary of
independent third-party testing
http://royalpurple.com/techrp/summary.html illustrating the real world
benefits of using Royal Purple. In the summary, the comparitive products
are simply listed as 'premium synthetic' or 'brand name mineral' as we
choose to take the higher road in comparitive data and not cast stones
directly at other manufacturers. However, if you download the full
reports as submitted by the third-party, the products used will be
clearly stated.



[ July 12, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
All that said moly disulfide < 1 micron still makes a killer FM better that moly ditho just will not stay in susupendion. I my mind moly dithio is a good additve but its just an upgrade from ZDDP.
need at least 400-500 ppm to get a good bang.
bruce
 
In today's forum format, this thread belongs in the additive section. However, I don't know how to bump a thread across sections. There are enough MoS2 threads rearing their heads in the additive section that I thought I would resurrect this old thread. If someone has some data that suggests that solids are good in motor oil, I would like to see it.
 
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