Moly in oil - if not important, why article on it?

[addyguy]

There are a lot of modern engine oils that do not use 'soluable moly' in their formula. Some people don't like to see that, but the answer from others is often "Don't worry about it, an oil does just fine without it".

Fair enough - there are a lot of UOA's from oils that don't use oil that are just as good as those with.

BUT, if this is the case, and moly really isn't that important of an additive in engine oil, why does it have a long, very detailed article on the mechanics of it, and only it, on the front page of this site? It must be pretty important - you don't see long articles on 'Boron basics' or 'Calcium basics'.

 

[SuperDave456]

Quote:
you don't see long articles on 'Boron basics' or 'Calcium basics'


Yeah, but there should be some cause this site is cool like that.

Oh yeah, and BTW, good question.

 

[FrankN4]

Moly "CN BE" a very good FM and anti wear agent. It also "CAN" be very corrosive to copper. For that reason, the formulation must be carefully "tweaked" to prevent corrosion and yet keep the FM and AW benefits of moly.

With ZDDP getting less, there is a need for a strong FM and AW agent and moly seems to be the one in the spotlight now.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: FrankN4
Moly "CN BE" a very good FM and anti wear agent. It also "CAN" be very corrosive to copper. For that reason, the formulation must be carefully "tweaked" to prevent corrosion and yet keep the FM and AW benefits of moly.

With ZDDP getting less, there is a need for a strong FM and AW agent and moly seems to be the one in the spotlight now.


Can't be in the spotlight much, Frank, if over the last 2-4 years, 'most' oils have removed or reduced it severely in their formulas....

Castrol GTX - used to have moly, now just OB calcium;
Pennzoil - latest formulations show almost no moly, and 40-70ppm of boron instead;
Havoline - used to show 300-500ppm of moly, now less than 200, often closer to 120-140ppm.

 

[JonnyHotcakes]

It's a good additive, but I think people put too much emphasis on it, just like basestocks.

Show some folks a group 2 oil without a ton of moly and they think it's [censored]. The VOA section has a really unflattering thread on Quaker State, which is one of the best oils for it's application going.

 

[FrankN4]

I suspect it may be more difficult/expensive to control moly than some want to deal with. Valvoline has added 280 to 300 moly to the MaxLife series, but not to the Synpower or conventional oils. Mobile 1 now has moly in "most" of their oils.

There are also two different moly adds. I think the more expensive one is something like MOLY DTC which is completely soluble, but corrosive.

I don't think Amsoil has any moly and they have excellent UOA's. If GF-5 requires a reduction in SA, that will probably remove some calcium. It will be interesting to see what, if any, new AW add will be used. I understand esters and even organic oils make excellent FM.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: addyguy

..... why does it have a long, very detailed article on the mechanics of it, and only it, on the front page of this site? It must be pretty important - you don't see long articles on 'Boron basics' or 'Calcium basics'.


Simple answer: History and marketing. Bob (THE BOB) is a Schaefer's salesman. At the time he founded this site, he was has riding the soluble Mo story high and hard. So, just like some of his "tests", it's marketing for a particular product.

 

[buster]

What Pablo said. However, moly is one of the best additives on the market. It's use is pretty extensive in many oils for various purposes. It is not a panacea however.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

+2 on What Pablo said. This sight was started by Bob a Shaeffers rep and the soluble Moly in their oils is a big selling point.

Moly is a good additive but it is not the only way to accomplish the function.

Bob's article on Moly is a great way to learn the way that Moly works in engine oil. If there is no moly or little moly in a energy conserving oil you can bet there is some other friction modifying technology being used.

 

[saaber1]

Does Moly leave some residual that harms cats or sensors? The reason I ask is redline removed moly from the "diesel" oils to meet the CJ4 requirement (is that right? don't remember the designation) , but it doesn't seem like any other producers did. It got me to wondering whether it leaves some residual that may be detrimental. ?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Moly isn't good in diesel applications.

 

[buster]

Some info from Valvman:

Quote:
It's well known in the industry that many sulfur containing compounds (not just MoDTC) can cause issues with "yellow metal" corrosion. MoDTC or similar compunds have been shown to cause this issue in poorly formulated lubricants, but it is fairly easy to "fix" the formulation with well known additives so the corrosion is not a problem even up to high treat rates of MoDTC (well over 1000ppm of Moly).

 

[JonnyHotcakes]

Is antimony one of those additives?

 

[dishdude]

And whats the deal with sodium? The uoa I had done on a run of Valvoline showed more sodium than a chinese buffet.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
Does Moly leave some residual that harms cats or sensors? The reason I ask is redline removed moly from the "diesel" oils to meet the CJ4 requirement (is that right? don't remember the designation) , but it doesn't seem like any other producers did. It got me to wondering whether it leaves some residual that may be detrimental. ?

All moly additives add to ash content and many of them contain sulfur, so they do/can contribute to those quanities that are restricted in the API CJ-4 spec. ZDDP in most CJ-4 oils is still quite high where the Zn contributes to ash and the "thio" part of the word means sulfur, so ZDDP is another contributor to these restricted quantities. Detergents do the same. So the formulator has to decide what mix they want to make and get the performance desired while obeying the chemical limits.

 

[salesrep]

Originally Posted By: saaber1
Does Moly leave some residual that harms cats or sensors? The reason I ask is redline removed moly from the "diesel" oils to meet the CJ4 requirement (is that right? don't remember the designation) , but it doesn't seem like any other producers did. It got me to wondering whether it leaves some residual that may be detrimental. ?

No. Well not Schaeffers anyhow.

 

[salesrep]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Moly isn't good in diesel applications.

I must disagree. Schaeffers formulas have been highly successful for decades in Diesels with no ill effects from moly.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: JonnyHotcakes
Is antimony one of those additives?

Antimony additives (AW/EP) can have many different forms and one of them is just like MoDTC except the Sb takes the place of Mo so it is SbDTC. Some but not all moly additives contain sulfur which is what can attact soft metals. Same for antimony additives - differences in behavior do exist though. So the answer is maybe but not necessarily.

Originally Posted By: dishdude
And whats the deal with sodium? The uoa I had done on a run of Valvoline showed more sodium than a chinese buffet.
Sodium is another metal that can take the place of Calcium and Magnesium in the detergent additives. They all behave a bit differently.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
And whats the deal with sodium? The uoa I had done on a run of Valvoline showed more sodium than a chinese buffet.


Sodium used with Ca has shown to be an excellent detergent system for great deposit control. Synpower is using this now as well.

 

[StevieC]

My last Amsoil ASL 5w30 UOA had high levels of sodium in it and the UOA's were superb, and I don't have a coolant leak.