It seems that people really want to talk about mobile hydrocarbon (HC) refrigerants. So have at it -- safety, legality, suitability, experience, whatever.
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Mobile HC Refrigerants, safety, legality, whatever
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i use enviro-safe in the olds. I'm not worried about it, theres already high pressure fuel under the hood.
Heres al you need to know. In the USA and who knows where else they are illegal, cant be vented etc.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html
They are unsafe. The main ingrediant is Propane. Propane is used as a refrigerant in industrial refrigeration units that are made/soldered/ welded as to not allow any leaks. A car is full of O-rings. rubber hoses etc that can leak. Car AC systems leak. Some more than others but they do leak. I would not have a job if they didn't leak.
Fast forward this one to the 3:00 mark to see the good part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANtAbkKrOuI
How much proof that HC refrigerants should not be used in a car do people need?
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html
They are unsafe. The main ingrediant is Propane. Propane is used as a refrigerant in industrial refrigeration units that are made/soldered/ welded as to not allow any leaks. A car is full of O-rings. rubber hoses etc that can leak. Car AC systems leak. Some more than others but they do leak. I would not have a job if they didn't leak.
Fast forward this one to the 3:00 mark to see the good part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANtAbkKrOuI
How much proof that HC refrigerants should not be used in a car do people need?
I used them in the old Tercel. Only because we can't buy R134A here without a license and shops just bend you right over.
I'd have preferred to just top it up with 134a charge cans like you guys in most of the US can do, but, I worked with what I had.
I was never scared of anything exploding though, and it was a chronically leaky system. Had to charge every spring.
On my budget at the time it was either this or boil to death and arrive sweaty and with a headache wherever I went. I stayed cool
I'd have preferred to just top it up with 134a charge cans like you guys in most of the US can do, but, I worked with what I had.
I was never scared of anything exploding though, and it was a chronically leaky system. Had to charge every spring.
On my budget at the time it was either this or boil to death and arrive sweaty and with a headache wherever I went. I stayed cool
I'll add that I'd never dream of putting them in anything short of a true rustbucket beater.
That stuff aint going in the Ranger anytime in the next ten years at least.
That stuff aint going in the Ranger anytime in the next ten years at least.
This is really only necessary for cars that came with R-12 aka Freon, I thought. R-134a systems can use the new R1234yf that's coming out. Also IIRC.
I bought a 30 pound can of Freon in 1993ish, in order to keep the Freon cars I had at the time cool for the forseeable future. In 2004 I turned it in to the city's Hazardous Waste depot.
I bought a 30 pound can of Freon in 1993ish, in order to keep the Freon cars I had at the time cool for the forseeable future. In 2004 I turned it in to the city's Hazardous Waste depot.
I have done a lot of research into this, and HC12 is totally safe as there has not been one single case in the whole world of a system catching fire. HC12 is not plain propane, it is a highly refined form of propane with a different flash point. R134A is very dangerous in my opinion if it is breathed in, or it burns in a fire. HC12 is considered a non-regulated product here because it poses no danger to the environment. Only dangerous products like R134a, (a greenhouse gas), are regulated and can only be bought by professional with a refrigeration license. I have HC12 in my daughters Grand Am, and it made a huge difference in the performance of her AC. It is actually more efficient than R12.
The real reason it's not approved in the US is that Dupont cannot patent it and make money on it.
If you want the truth on the product read this: http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/tech/04hc12a/
The real reason it's not approved in the US is that Dupont cannot patent it and make money on it.
If you want the truth on the product read this: http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/tech/04hc12a/
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Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I have done a lot of research into this, and HC12 is totally safe as there has not been one single case in the whole world of a system catching fire. HC12 is not plain propane, it is a highly refined form of propane with a different flash point. R134A is very dangerous in my opinion if it is breathed in, or it burns in a fire. HC12 is considered a non-regulated product here because it poses no danger to the environment. Only dangerous products like R134a, (a greenhouse gas), are regulated and can only be bought by professional with a refrigeration license. I have HC12 in my daughters Grand Am, and it made a huge difference in the performance of her AC. It is actually more efficient than R12.
The real reason it's not approved in the US is that Dupont cannot patent it and make money on it.
If you want the truth on the product read this: http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/tech/04hc12a/
No matter what, it is still ILLEGAL to use it in the USA.
I have done a lot of research into this, and HC12 is totally safe as there has not been one single case in the whole world of a system catching fire. HC12 is not plain propane, it is a highly refined form of propane with a different flash point. R134A is very dangerous in my opinion if it is breathed in, or it burns in a fire. HC12 is considered a non-regulated product here because it poses no danger to the environment. Only dangerous products like R134a, (a greenhouse gas), are regulated and can only be bought by professional with a refrigeration license. I have HC12 in my daughters Grand Am, and it made a huge difference in the performance of her AC. It is actually more efficient than R12.
The real reason it's not approved in the US is that Dupont cannot patent it and make money on it.
If you want the truth on the product read this: http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature/tech/04hc12a/
No matter what, it is still ILLEGAL to use it in the USA.
Yes and now HFO-1234yf has been approved by the EPA. It's actually a toxic firebomb waiting to happen when compared to R134A. The EU has even labeled 1234yf as an extremely flammable product but hey it's environmentally more friendly provided your car doesn't catch fire.
So let's see were releasing less greenhouse gases however in an accident if your car catches fire as a result I guess those gases get a reprieve from mother nature? Meanwhile your car burns to the ground which might have been a salvageable wreck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P19sG_SOPjY
http://www.1234facts.com/HFO-1234yf.php
So let's see were releasing less greenhouse gases however in an accident if your car catches fire as a result I guess those gases get a reprieve from mother nature? Meanwhile your car burns to the ground which might have been a salvageable wreck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P19sG_SOPjY
http://www.1234facts.com/HFO-1234yf.php
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Originally Posted By: Nick R
No matter what, it is still ILLEGAL to use it in the USA.
What's your point?
No matter what, it is still ILLEGAL to use it in the USA.
What's your point?
Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Yes and now HFO-1234yf has been approved by the EPA. It's actually a toxic firebomb waiting to happen when compared to R134A. The EU has even labeled 1234yf as an extremely flammable product...
So the EPA can approve a highly flammable product, but not a flammable one?
Can you spell inconsistent...
Yes and now HFO-1234yf has been approved by the EPA. It's actually a toxic firebomb waiting to happen when compared to R134A. The EU has even labeled 1234yf as an extremely flammable product...
So the EPA can approve a highly flammable product, but not a flammable one?
Can you spell inconsistent...
It's not illegal on your own car. I have had it for 5 years in my old van. Cheap and efficient.
The lack of a patent and big bucks is the reason it's maligned.
The lack of a patent and big bucks is the reason it's maligned.
People who work in the automotive a/c servicing area don't like companies like Duracool, because they are loosing money by people recharging their own a/c systems in their cars. I have been using Duracool in my vehicles for over 10 years now and have had no problems whatsoever with it. I save money doing my own a/c work and if others have a problem with it, too bad.
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
It's not illegal on your own car.
You didn't read the link I posted.
What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL®?
It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12® took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12a® is also subject to the same restrictions.
HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, is not the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B and has not been submitted for SNAP review. OZ Technology is therefore prohibited from marketing this blend as a substitute for any ozone-depleting substance. In addition, any use of this blend as a substitute for CFC-12 or any other ozone-depleting chemical, in industrial process refrigeration or any other refrigeration or A/C end use, is prohibited under the Clean Air Act.
Since HC-12a®, as submitted for SNAP review, is chemically different from HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, and since it has a different legal status under the Clean Air Act, users of any substance marketed as HC-12a® should be aware of which HC-12a® they have purchased.
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.
It's not illegal on your own car.
You didn't read the link I posted.
What is the legal status of hydrocarbon refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL®?
It has been illegal since July 13, 1995 to replace CFC-12 with the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review in any refrigeration or A/C application other than industrial process refrigeration. The same prohibition for OZ-12® took effect on April 18, 1994. Because DURACOOL 12a® has the same chemical composition as the HC-12a® formulation that was submitted for SNAP review (i.e., Hydrocarbon Blend B), DURACOOL 12a® is also subject to the same restrictions.
HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, is not the same as Hydrocarbon Blend B and has not been submitted for SNAP review. OZ Technology is therefore prohibited from marketing this blend as a substitute for any ozone-depleting substance. In addition, any use of this blend as a substitute for CFC-12 or any other ozone-depleting chemical, in industrial process refrigeration or any other refrigeration or A/C end use, is prohibited under the Clean Air Act.
Since HC-12a®, as submitted for SNAP review, is chemically different from HC-12a®, as reformulated to meet DOT requirements, and since it has a different legal status under the Clean Air Act, users of any substance marketed as HC-12a® should be aware of which HC-12a® they have purchased.
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
Looks like those States are going to have to change their laws, because the new Global refrigerant HFO-1234yf is "Highly Flammable"
HFO-1234yf was Fully aproved by EPA April 6th 2011
http://www.1234facts.com/pdf/EPA SNAP Press Release 04-6-11.pdf
From the Honeywell web page:
That is why HFO-1234yf has to be called highly flammable (Directive for Dangerous Substances, Nov. 11, 2010 and Directive Nr. 1272/2008).
Crash Tests The automotive manufacturers and component suppliers have tested HFO-1234yf in detail during the SAE Cooperative Research Program. They have modern testing facilities and broad experience in conducting these tests.
Two examples:
Fiat has conducted a crash test with HFO-1234yf with a Fiat 500 at 65 km/h (in accordance with EuroNCAP Protocol).
There was no fire and no excursion of toxic materials.
Peugeot has conducted a crash test with HFO-1234yf in a Peugeot 308 at 56 km/h (in accordance to ECE 94). The engine had been running for a long time and was particularly hot.
There was no fire and no excursion of toxic materials.
Note: Many states prohibit using flammable refrigerants in motor vehicles, regardless of which original refrigerant was used in the vehicle.
Looks like those States are going to have to change their laws, because the new Global refrigerant HFO-1234yf is "Highly Flammable"
HFO-1234yf was Fully aproved by EPA April 6th 2011
http://www.1234facts.com/pdf/EPA SNAP Press Release 04-6-11.pdf
From the Honeywell web page:
That is why HFO-1234yf has to be called highly flammable (Directive for Dangerous Substances, Nov. 11, 2010 and Directive Nr. 1272/2008).
Crash Tests The automotive manufacturers and component suppliers have tested HFO-1234yf in detail during the SAE Cooperative Research Program. They have modern testing facilities and broad experience in conducting these tests.
Two examples:
Fiat has conducted a crash test with HFO-1234yf with a Fiat 500 at 65 km/h (in accordance with EuroNCAP Protocol).
There was no fire and no excursion of toxic materials.
Peugeot has conducted a crash test with HFO-1234yf in a Peugeot 308 at 56 km/h (in accordance to ECE 94). The engine had been running for a long time and was particularly hot.
There was no fire and no excursion of toxic materials.
Interesting how they ban Duracool and other hydrocarbon based refrigerants yet allow HFO-1234yz which is documented to be highly-flammable. Thanks for the info Bluestream. Glad we don't have all that legal mumbo-jumbo to deal with, lol
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Chris, you've only told part of the story, and omitted quite a bit of information. Working from memory, the EPA has only banned direct coversion of r12 systems to HC-12. It's okay (in some states) to convert these systems to HC-12 if the system was previously converted to r134.
In practical terms, that means you're okay to use HC-12 if you have the r134 fittings on your old system.
Right on. Funny how there is so much misinformation around..
From Wiki: Because of its flammability, it is illegal to replace R-12 with HC-12a in the United States. It is not illegal to purchase HC-12a, or to use it in refrigeration systems that were not originally charged with R-12, except for in certain states that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in automobiles.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a
Chris, you've only told part of the story, and omitted quite a bit of information. Working from memory, the EPA has only banned direct coversion of r12 systems to HC-12. It's okay (in some states) to convert these systems to HC-12 if the system was previously converted to r134.
In practical terms, that means you're okay to use HC-12 if you have the r134 fittings on your old system.
Right on. Funny how there is so much misinformation around..
From Wiki: Because of its flammability, it is illegal to replace R-12 with HC-12a in the United States. It is not illegal to purchase HC-12a, or to use it in refrigeration systems that were not originally charged with R-12, except for in certain states that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in automobiles.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a
it IS NOT there business whats in my truck. GO JUMP IN A LAKE!!!!
Originally Posted By: morris
it IS NOT there business whats in my truck. GO JUMP IN A LAKE!!!!
Agreed!
it IS NOT there business whats in my truck. GO JUMP IN A LAKE!!!!
Agreed!
Originally Posted By: morris
it IS NOT there business whats in my truck. GO JUMP IN A LAKE!!!!
That's the Spirt!
it IS NOT there business whats in my truck. GO JUMP IN A LAKE!!!!
That's the Spirt!
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