Mobil 5000 5w30 5,585 miles UOA

[kschachn]

That's what you were going to do in the first place, right?

Why not just try a run without it and see what happens with the UOA? Prove us wrong.

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Your right, it is being ignored.

I came on here to find out if the copper level was in fact too high, and find out where it could be coming from. Few have commented on the copper level and no one has given any input on where it is coming from. Everyone is so up in arms about oil additives that they cant seem to bring themselves to analyze the UOA. If I wouldn't have said that this sample contained MMO, no one would have ever been able to tell the difference just by looking at this UOA. I appreciate everyones opinions, but I know that the MMO and 5 minute motor flushes are not causing any detriment to my motor. If it was, there would be a lot more than just a negligable increase in copper in the UOA, and I would be seeing, hearing or feeling a change in the motor. Im not going to quit using them, so we may as well just move on.

 

[jk_636]

Dont take it personally. This website is a consortium of very dedicated amateurs with a lot of good information. Having said that, everything said here (my opinions included) should be taken with a grain of salt. And yes, I do plan on running an interval without MMO to see the difference. Jegs has a sale on RP High Mileage with Synerlec. I am going to be running that after my current oil surplus is gone (about 2 more oil changes in my stash)

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Your right, it is being ignored.

I came on here to find out if the copper level was in fact too high, and find out where it could be coming from. Few have commented on the copper level and no one has given any input on where it is coming from. Everyone is so up in arms about oil additives that they cant seem to bring themselves to analyze the UOA. If I wouldn't have said that this sample contained MMO, no one would have ever been able to tell the difference just by looking at this UOA. I appreciate everyones opinions, but I know that the MMO and 5 minute motor flushes are not causing any detriment to my motor. If it was, there would be a lot more than just a negligable increase in copper in the UOA, and I would be seeing, hearing or feeling a change in the motor. Im not going to quit using them, so we may as well just move on.

I have no horse in this race--never used MMO, never plan to, and have no opinion either way. But until you have a baseline from which to compare you cannot say either way (and neither can any of us with absolute certainty) whether MMO is causing detriment or not. However, you are replacing 17% of the MS5K with a low grade solvent in the form of MMO and other than some cleaning properties, it is not adding any benefit to the composition of the oil (the VOA proves that).

Skepticism aside, what most people are inferring is that MMO is affecting the oil which in turn could account for the increase of copper in the UOA. Copper is typically leached from oil coolers or bronze engine parts such as bushings or bearings--while your readings are not excessive, they were flagged. Lastly, the flashpoint of the oil has been reduced from about 465 (MS5K 5W-20) to 380 and since your engine does not have fuel dilution with a reading of
Therefore in some ways, your mix has less robustness than straight 5W-20 oil (which you indicated the engine was back specified for) and 5K on MS5K is not a stretch by any means. Obviously, you will do what you think is best and you are absolutely free to make that choice, but if it were mine, I confirm whether or not there was actually a varnish/sludge issue in the engine. In the absence of such, I would use PCMO only and stop the MMO treatment and take some UOAs to compare. The other option is to try a different oil--the sodium/titanium anti-wear pack in MS5K may not be optimum in your engine. Try a SOPUS product that has moly/boron/ZDDP and see how it fares (without MMO). Good luck!

 

[Rand]

for a real baseline I'd recommend the same oil without additives.. although really you should do 2 intervals to get the old oil out of there. Also when you do a "5 min motor flush" Do you think 100% of it drains out of the engine? no A small amount will be present in the oil for the next interval. That along with the nearly additive free mineral solvent called MMO could CERTAINLY be causing the high(er) levels of wear metals.

Not only are you severely thinning the oil, you are lowing the additive package of the oil by a significant percentage. If the motor oil manufacturer though a lower amount of additives would produce the same effect.. they would certainly use less.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Your right, it is being ignored.

I came on here to find out if the copper level was in fact too high, and find out where it could be coming from. Few have commented on the copper level and no one has given any input on where it is coming from. Everyone is so up in arms about oil additives that they cant seem to bring themselves to analyze the UOA. If I wouldn't have said that this sample contained MMO, no one would have ever been able to tell the difference just by looking at this UOA. I appreciate everyones opinions, but I know that the MMO and 5 minute motor flushes are not causing any detriment to my motor. If it was, there would be a lot more than just a negligable increase in copper in the UOA, and I would be seeing, hearing or feeling a change in the motor. Im not going to quit using them, so we may as well just move on.

I have no horse in this race--never used MMO, never plan to, and have no opinion either way. But until you have a baseline from which to compare you cannot say either way (and neither can any of us with absolute certainty) whether MMO is causing detriment or not. However, you are replacing 17% of the MS5K with a low grade solvent in the form of MMO and other than some cleaning properties, it is not adding any benefit to the composition of the oil (the VOA proves that).

Skepticism aside, what most people are inferring is that MMO is affecting the oil which in turn could account for the increase of copper in the UOA. Copper is typically leached from oil coolers or bronze engine parts such as bushings or bearings--while your readings are not excessive, they were flagged. Lastly, the flashpoint of the oil has been reduced from about 465 (MS5K 5W-20) to 380 and since your engine does not have fuel dilution with a reading of
Therefore in some ways, your mix has less robustness than straight 5W-20 oil (which you indicated the engine was back specified for) and 5K on MS5K is not a stretch by any means. Obviously, you will do what you think is best and you are absolutely free to make that choice, but if it were mine, I confirm whether or not there was actually a varnish/sludge issue in the engine. In the absence of such, I would use PCMO only and stop the MMO treatment and take some UOAs to compare. The other option is to try a different oil--the sodium/titanium anti-wear pack in MS5K may not be optimum in your engine. Try a SOPUS product that has moly/boron/ZDDP and see how it fares (without MMO). Good luck!


This definetely makes sense. I dont have an oil cooler (not externally mounted anyway) so that narrows it down. Good info, thanks!

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Rand
...Also when you do a "5 min motor flush" Do you think 100% of it drains out of the engine?


Yes. I run it for anywhere between 5-10 minutes, then let the oil sink all the way down to the pan (takes about 3 hours or so.) Then I pull the drain plug and let the pan drain for another probably 45 minutes or so. By the time Im done, it is ALL gone.

 

[BrianC]

From the "Oil Analysis" article on this site:

Quote:
Copper is widely used due to its high ductility and thermal conductivity. It is mainly utilized in bushings and bearings such as: crankshaft journal bearings, connecting rod bearings, camshaft bushings, piston wrist pin bushings, thrust washers, and even heat exchangers (oil coolers).


+15 that you are thinning the oil AND diluting the ADD PACK. You would be better served just using a 5w-20 to start with, and save the MMO for the mower as a fuel additive. I would also stop the 5 min oil flush. It simply is not needed.

A 20 grade oil =5.6 to
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-super/mobil-super

http://www.pqiamerica.com/ExxonMobilSuper5000.htm

JMHO

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: jk_636


Originally Posted By: Brons2
If you're going to keep using MMO, maybe try a thicker Xw30 or an Xw40.


I would have to go to a 40 weight, as I am already using a 30 weight currently. A 40 weight oil with MMO would put me at 35 weight.


You missed the point. The 30 range runs from 9.3 CST to 12.49 CST, that's a 25% range between the thinnest 30wt and the thickest, even though the bottles are all labeled 5w30. Find one closer to the 12.49 spec by browsing VOAs.

 

[jk_636]

I must be lost. I assumed all 30 weight oils were pretty much the same?

 

[BrianC]

"30" is not the viscosity of the oil. It is a SAE viscosity grade. The term "Weight" is widely used but incorrect.

BTW, the viscosity of MMO at 100C is 2.6 cSt almost as thin as water. Water is 1.0 cSt.

Read the thread linked below:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...MMO#Post3442362

You would need a 40 grade with a Kinematic Viscosity(cSt) of 15.0 at 100C to achieve a 30 grade of 10.4 cSt. Adding MMO to the Mobil 5w-30 as you currently are doing takes the viscosity down to 8.0 cst which is a 20 grade with 17% less original additives. Probably not what Mobil intended when they formulated this oil.

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Mixtures.html
http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/J300.html

I think you are trying to fix something that ain't broke.
Mobil Super is a good oil and will keep that engine clean if you change it as recommended in your manual. Additives are not needed or recommended in any modern SN/GF-5 oil.

 

[kschachn]

This, exactly. Why dilute the oil, both viscosity wise and the additives when there is no problem that's trying to be solved?

There is an answer BTW, the OP just needs to admit it.

Originally Posted By: BrianC
You would need a 40 grade with a Kinematic Viscosity(cSt) of 15.0 at 100C to achieve a 30 grade of 10.4 cSt. Adding MMO to the Mobil 5w-30 as you currently are doing takes the viscosity down to 8.0 cst which is a 20 grade with 17% less original additives. Probably not what Mobil intended when they formulated this oil.

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Mixtures.html
http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/J300.html

I think you are trying to fix something that ain't broke.
Mobil Super is a good oil and will keep that engine clean if you change it as recommended in your manual. Additives are not needed or recommended in any modern SN/GF-5 oil.

 

[jk_636]

I need to admit what? You think this is the first time I have used MMO? I have used it for years and never had a problem. I even drink some every morning to keep me regular. It is good stuff.

I have come to the conclusion that I just ran the oil too long and this copper level is just the result of normal wear and tear. I have some PYB to try and then I will be switching to RP HMX without MMO. That will undoubtedly slow down any wear. And I'm not stopping MMO because it is a problem, but because there is no reason to blend it with a full synthetic. I will post some more UOAs as they come and see what the final verdict is. Unless the five minute motor flushes don't blow up my engine first

 

[kschachn]

That your use of MMO is not based on a need, nor on any evidence of efficacy. It is an emotional decision - you feel better because you use it. As a result, no amount of technical discussion in this thread or any other will deter you regardless of any argument that is made.

Originally Posted By: jk_636
I need to admit what?

 

[jorton]

If you run 20% MMO every oc, the concentration will gradually increase because not all of the used oil is removed. Try using the 20% MMO oc every other time.

 

[ram_man]

Mmo. Is the cause of your problem. The uoa will show better results if that is removed.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
In this case, more is always better. If things like sodium, moly, boron, calcium, etc. are good at preventing wear, then more has to be better. That is why people on this site do VOAs. To see who has the best add pack, and use that one as opposed to one that has less additives present.

I don't see any real problems with your copper or iron. However, the statements above are incorrect. Read any of the papers on various additives. Some have diminishing returns. Some become corrosive above certain concentrations. Some are synergistic at certain levels, while others are not. Additionally, a VOA of MMO was posted in this thread, and it really contains a lot of "nothing."

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Additionally, a VOA of MMO was posted in this thread, and it really contains a lot of "nothing."

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: jk_636
In this case, more is always better. If things like sodium, moly, boron, calcium, etc. are good at preventing wear, then more has to be better. That is why people on this site do VOAs. To see who has the best add pack, and use that one as opposed to one that has less additives present.

I don't see any real problems with your copper or iron. However, the statements above are incorrect. Read any of the papers on various additives. Some have diminishing returns. Some become corrosive above certain concentrations. Some are synergistic at certain levels, while others are not. Additionally, a VOA of MMO was posted in this thread, and it really contains a lot of "nothing."


Thats why it is a "mystery"...

 

[oliveoil]

I've enjoyed this thread, mostly because of how the OP can't take a hint. The motor "flush" an MMO while, they many not hurting his engine (he'll get 200k +), it clearly isn't helping. Just sayin.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
I appreciate the response, but this is not a discussion on the merits of oil additives. MMO is listed because that is what was used in the vehicle. Just trying to find out if the copper level is really something to be alarmed with, and where it may be coming from. MMO is not compromising my oil, nor is it "thinning it out too much." These motors are back specd from chrysler to a Xw20 weight oil. MMO brings it from Xw30 to Xw26. That is not the root of the problem here.


It is compromising due to the fact XOM formulated the oil to meet specs and you are adding are very outdated additive disrupting the finished product into an unknown variable.

From your previous posts I understand this is way over your head and you do not understand.