Mobil 1 Syn 10w/30 - 5000 mi - 05 Hyudia Elantra

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: JAG
Those elements' concentrations do not significantly decrease no matter how depleted the oil is.

Au contraire.

I'm sorry to disappoint by attempting to inform but that's a lesser evil than allowing mistakes to go uncorrected.

A source supporting my statement Link

Quote:
Spectroscopy
For organometallic additives - those containing elements such as calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc, phosphorus, etc. – elemental spectroscopy, using either inductively coupled plasma (ICP) or rotating disc electrode (RDE), spectrometers can be used. However, when it comes to monitoring additive depletion, elemental spectroscopy suffers one fatal flaw. While elemental spectroscopy can determine sudden and massive additive loss, due to effects such as water washout or the addition of wrong oil, the technique is generally not sensitive enough to provide an early enough warning of additive depletion, and in fact may miss the problem all together.

Again, the reasons are simple. Elemental spectroscopy measures elements. While the elements in question (zinc and phosphorus from ZDDP) may be bound up as a healthy, fully functional additive, additive depletion resulting in destruction of the additive molecules and hence loss of additive functionality would not necessarily be identified because the elements themselves will still be present in some other (nonfunctional) form. The elements are not destroyed, just changed in form and still capable of being measured identically.


Link to a different author, Link2

Quote:
The main problem with using elemental spectroscopy to trend additive health is that the test is not actually measuring the concentration of the additive itself, but rather the concentration of the constituent atoms of the additive molecule in question. For example, a certain antiwear (AW) hydraulic fluid may contain the additive zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) which is both an antiwear and antioxidant additive. Taking a clean, new sample of this oil and performing ICP analysis will typically yield zinc and phosphorus concentrations in the 200 to 300 ppm range, indicative of the amount of ZDDP present in the oil. When this oil is put into service, the ZDDP will be slowly depleted reducing the oil’s effectiveness in resisting oxidation and preventing wear from occurring. Although depletion results in the loss of ZDDP molecules through chemical reaction, the amount of zinc and phosphorus present as measured by ICP is usually unchanged since atoms cannot be destroyed by simple tribochemical reactions. The result is an oil, which may have 50 percent or more ZDDP depletion, but still shows normal zinc and phosphorus levels of 200 to 300 ppm.

 

[ZZman]

Report looks good.

I would say you are good for a 7500 mile run. If worried do one more UOA with a TBN test to check it.

You really can't go wrong running Mobil 1 and reasonable oil changes.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
...

These three elements:

Calcium 2734
Phosphorus 682
Zinc 868

indicate that you've depleted relatively little of the three major anti-wear anti-acid additives in this oil.

...

This statement is incorrect. The ONLY way these would be removed from the sump is burnoff and plating out. You ABSOLUTELY cannot judge remaining oil life by % of these metals in analysis. The primary indicator is TBN/TAN and Viscosity outside of grade margin. Next, High % wear materials in suspension or solution can be considered.

 

[znode]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: JAG
Those elements' concentrations do not significantly decrease no matter how depleted the oil is.

Au contraire.

Just because you think so doesn't make it true.

This is elementary school chemistry here. Chemical reactions can't change, take away, or add elements.

 

[Boatowner]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Typical BITOG waste of oil - could have easily done 10k, and car is not under warranty.

You really wanna do 5k? Use whatever conventional is on sale!


These fanatics who only believe in conventional oil always amaze me. Here in the land of the free and the home of the brave, don't we all have the right to use the oil we want to use, even a synthetic? In fact, I think I have the right to use a full synthetic and 3,000 mile oci.

What if the OP is recycling his used oil? Does that make his experience more acceptable?

In my we use Mobil 1 in all vehicles and a 6,000 mile oci. This is my right under the First Amendment.

(Note: your "First Amendment" rights end when you don't follow the rules of this private board. Please review them. Any questions PM me)

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I'm sorry to disappoint by attempting to inform but that's a lesser evil than allowing mistakes to go uncorrected.


The essence of your citations is that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. If I put iron in solution in the motor oil, and it oxidizes, I will still have the element iron in the motor oil in another form - iron oxide - in the same amount.

And that's true.

However, in actual use in a motor oil elements can be diminished in a number of ways, of which three are relatively common.

The first is the loss of elements in evaporation. A common example is the loss of phosphorus through the exhaust, which process can coat the surface matrix of a catalytic converter and render it useless. It is an actual loss of the element phosphorus from solution with the loss of volatiles.

The second is the incorporation of elements into a coating or matrix on wearing surfaces. The evidence seems to be that additives such as ZDDP create a microscopic matrix on surfaces during seating. That is an actual loss of the elements from solution.

The third is the dropout of elements into sludge and varnish. ZDDP is particularly known for its propensity to form the nucleus of sludge particles when conditions are right, and this also represents a loss from the solution.

This does not mean that we can watch phosphorous - for an example - diminish in a linear fashion with use, but it does mean that there is a real and measurable loss of elements from solution over time, just as there is an increase in wear elements like aluminum and iron over time.

I inferred from the low wear metals and other measurements in this analysis, and the low mileage, that this was not the case. However, had the individual run TAN or TBN, or both, we would have a bit more information as to the condition of the oil.

As you know, TAN increases in service as TBN decreases, and if we had the beginning numbers from a virgin analysis and the current numbers, we'd be able to precise the condition of the oil.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: znode
This is elementary school chemistry here. Chemical reactions can't change, take away, or add elements.


There's a bit more than elementary school chemistry going on.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
This statement is incorrect.


In the context it was not.

 

[JAG]

Wilhelm_D, I agree with everything you said in your last reply to my reply. Those processes do change concentrations of elements in oil but those changes are small. Measurement variability can be much greater than those changes. Even if there were no measurement error, we couldn't determine from those changes whether those additives were healthy or depleted because we'd need to know what was going on on the molecular level. The elemental level (concentrations of elements) is not sufficient. Even in the extremely long OCI UOAs, they show little change (beyond measurement error) in concentrations of zinc, phosphorus, calcium magnesium, etc. One element that does consistently decrease in concentration in UOAs is boron. I have not been able to determine by what process this occurs (evaporation, fallout, plating, etc.).

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
This statement is incorrect.


In the context it was not.


This context?
Wilhelm_D, " ... indicate that you've depleted relatively little of the three major anti-wear anti-acid additives in this oil." it seems Additive compound depletion cannot be derived from simple element analysis as the The metal element compound may have been reacted and be in a non-effective state though in solution or suspension. I am still curious to more fully understand typicall EP depletion rate and detergent scavenging of the "spent" EP (e.g: ZDDP) in a high stress environment. As an oil life indicator beyond TBN/TAN we may only look for hard wear metal upticks, i.e; 2ppm Fe or Cr per 1K in a sub 5k mi run, then a possble 5ppm/1k after 7-10K mi in sump. But we dont typically have the pleasure to see multiple analysis (in PCMO) done this way across one OCI due to high sampling cost.

 

[elantra]

like i said before, this is my first, so excuse my ignorance.

i understand that UOA is the oil analysis, but what is TAN or TBN?

thanks for the help. i will go 7500 on the next one. i wish i had done the 10k one, but didnt know of this oil analysis at that time.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
This context?


If you are enjoying yourself, be my guest.

Just proceed without me.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: elantra
i understand that UOA is the oil analysis, but what is TAN or TBN?


Total Acid Number, Total Base Number.

As the motor oil is used, TAN increases and TBN decreases.

To use them you first have to measure one or both with the oil you're using while it's virgin and the lab you are going to use (different oils have different numbers, different labs have different norms).

 

[elantra]

thanks, i will check and see if black stone does this test.

 

[minnow101]

Long time lurker and first time poster -- please be gentle !

Used Mobil 1 for years. Been doing Blackstone testing on my 2005 Corolla now with 80,000 miles. I changed the filter only at 6000 miles. Blackstones comments were as follows:
"You tried a 12,572-mile oil run and your Toyota's engine held up well. Aluminum and iron, from
pistons and cylinders, respectively, increased with iron leading the way. That's normal since more iron will
get into the oil than aluminum. All of the wear metals read below universal averages for the 1.9L engine.
The oil's TBN was 2.1, still showing some active additive left. It's almost gone when it reads 1.0. Why not try
a ~15,000-mile oil change interval and check back to monitor wear. We are impressed; you may own one of
the nicest wearing Toyotas in New York".

I have the specific #'s if anyone's interested. To the O.P., I would think that once your past the 100,000 warranty, you can easily and safely extend your oil change intervals.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: ctc
Originally Posted By: addyguy
Typical BITOG waste of oil - could have easily done 10k, and car is not under warranty.

You really wanna do 5k? Use whatever conventional is on sale!


Typical BITOG judgmental post. You don't know him or his reasons for doing a 5K OCI.
addyguy is giving a lesson on the what, why and how of oil. There is a lesson being taught .

 

[elantra]

Originally Posted By: minnow101
Long time lurker and first time poster -- please be gentle !

Used Mobil 1 for years. Been doing Blackstone testing on my 2005 Corolla now with 80,000 miles. I changed the filter only at 6000 miles. Blackstones comments were as follows:
"You tried a 12,572-mile oil run and your Toyota's engine held up well. Aluminum and iron, from
pistons and cylinders, respectively, increased with iron leading the way. That's normal since more iron will
get into the oil than aluminum. All of the wear metals read below universal averages for the 1.9L engine.
The oil's TBN was 2.1, still showing some active additive left. It's almost gone when it reads 1.0. Why not try
a ~15,000-mile oil change interval and check back to monitor wear. We are impressed; you may own one of
the nicest wearing Toyotas in New York".

I have the specific #'s if anyone's interested. To the O.P., I would think that once your past the 100,000 warranty, you can easily and safely extend your oil change intervals.


wow, thanks. did you ask blackstone for the tbn test results? they didnt have it included in my results. does that test cost extra?