Mobil 1 AFE 0W-30 is low on additives but good?

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Why would you assume low phosphorus and low zinc means low on additives?

There are plenty of great AW/FM/Dispersents/Detergents/Oxidation Inhibitors/Metal Deactivators and other goodies in a DI package that have no zinc or phosphorus in them.

Maybe AFE 0W30 has excellent phosphorus retention (which is part of the resource conserving portion of the API SN/GF-5 certification 600ppm min). Maybe they came up with better ways to prevent wear that isn't just ZDDP.

Yes it will work fine for you.
 
In practical terms, there's really not much difference between 650 PPM and 800 PPM. Its in the same category as all other SN-rated Xw30 oils. M1 0w40 gets a pass because 40-weight oils have a higher phosphorous limit under the SN spec.

And as mentioned already, the combination of those additives with other technologies can offer plenty of protection. Plus- your car has a small, overhead-cam engine with roller cam followers, lightweight valve springs and low valve seat pressure. It doesn't have astronomically high sliding contact pressures between the cam and lifter- THAT is pretty much the sole purpose of the Zn/P components. You don't need them in high doses like a 1970 Chevelle with a 454 and .6 inch lift non-roller cam, dual valve springs, and hundreds of pounds of valve spring pressure does.
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
And would you guys run a 0w30 over an 0W-20 without any reservations in a new 4cyl non turbo non Direct Injection?


If it calls for 0w20 thats would I would use.
 
Zddp is old tech and yesterdays news. Today's high tech additives packages have other elements that are more effective than zddp. So don't dwell on a single data point when the finished formulation is what's important.
 
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
ALL SN 20 and 30-wt oils have low zinc/phos!

M1 0w30 meets A5/B5 standards, so it will work well for a long time.


Please show me where you find that M1 0w30 meets A5/B5 standards.

Can not find that info. Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: SumpChump
And would you guys run a 0w30 over an 0W-20 without any reservations in a new 4cyl non turbo non Direct Injection?


Not if it calls for a 5w20 or 0w20. The Xw20 oils are typically (regardless of brand) very shear stable compared to same-brand Xw30 oils.
 
There are a few oils people think have a weak additive pack but get good results and the best example is probably Valvoline's oils, they have a weak looking add pack on a VOA but return some of the best UOAs. Apparently some of their additives don't show up or aren't tested for
 
You guys are not posing the question the right way.

The question should be:
Under a severe application, will the low content, ZN & Phosphorus, Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 & 0W30 perform as well as the more "robust" Mobil 1 20wt & 30wt lineup?

By severe, I am talking about Death Valley type driving, bumper to bumper Vegas driving, or towing in the Rocky Mountains under summer conditions. (Not the steady state, 10,000 mile driving Tig does - or driving like grand mom) .

Full disclosure, I have Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 in the sump of a 2010 Fusion Hybrid, and drive like grand mom and sometimes hit 50 mpg.
 
Originally Posted By: GravelRoad
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
ALL SN 20 and 30-wt oils have low zinc/phos!

M1 0w30 meets A5/B5 standards, so it will work well for a long time.


Please show me where you find that M1 0w30 meets A5/B5 standards.

Can not find that info. Thanks


That's because it doesn't, its A1/B1
 
Originally Posted By: Best F100
You guys are not posing the question the right way.

The question should be:
Under a severe application, will the low content, ZN & Phosphorus, Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 & 0W30 perform as well as the more "robust" Mobil 1 20wt & 30wt lineup?

By severe, I am talking about Death Valley type driving, bumper to bumper Vegas driving, or towing in the Rocky Mountains under summer conditions. (Not the steady state, 10,000 mile driving Tig does - or driving like grand mom) .



Yes, IMO. High ambient temp really has nothing at all to do with whether ZDDP is needed or not, nor does it place more demand on that part of the additive package. High ambient temp puts more demand on the base oils, and in that respect it kinda seems that the AFE oils might be a little better than the standard M1 oils.

The greyer area would be extreme engine loading (regardless of temperature) that might result in more metal-to-metal contact punching through the film strength of the oil (which is the only time ZDDP really comes into play). But given how rare that kind of contact is in an engine EXCEPT for the cam/lifter interface in old-style flat-tappet engines- which isn't load dependent anyway, I don't think the difference between AFE, regular, and EP versions would be detectable.

My full disclosure: I've towed at near max GVW in my 2015 Ram 4.7, running 0w20 AFE, across west Texas in >100F ambient temps for 1000 miles out of a 5k mile OCI. The UOA came back exactly the same as non-towing UOAs on the same oil/engine.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
My full disclosure: I've towed at near max GVW in my 2015 Ram 4.7, running 0w20 AFE, across west Texas in >100F ambient temps for 1000 miles out of a 5k mile OCI. The UOA came back exactly the same as non-towing UOAs on the same oil/engine.
Same here, my UOAs show nearly the same readings whether I am towing in conditions that 440 has described above or simply driving.
 
Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
There are a few oils people think have a weak additive pack but get good results and the best example is probably Valvoline's oils, they have a weak looking add pack on a VOA but return some of the best UOAs. Apparently some of their additives don't show up or aren't tested for


There's about 50 different chemical species in motor oils that do not show themselves in economical VOAs or UOAs.
 
I emailed Mobil rep asking if AFE has lesser anti-wear chemistry than the other variants. This is the conversation:

Me: I see in the Mobil 1 product guide that AFE 0w30 has less phosphorous and zinc levels than other lines such as EP 5w30, HM 5w30, regular 5w30. Im interested in 0w30 for its cold flow properties but Im concerned that low additive levels might cause wear over long term. What are your thoughts?

Rep: All of our recommendation are based on getting the product that meets the right specs/standards (based on OEM recommendation) into the equipment as opposed to speculating based on elemental concentrations alone. In order to better assist you I will need some info about the vehicle into which the oil will be used:
Year
Make
Model
Submodel (Engine size/gas or diesel)

Me:
This is my vehicle info:
Year: 2003
Make: Mazda
Model: Miata MX-5
Submodel (Engine size/gas or diesel): 1.8L naturally aspirated gasoline engine with double overhead cam
Driving style: spiritedly frequenting redline almost all the time and mostly in the city. Driven throughout the year including winter in Detroit.
If elemental concentrations aren't important as much as standards and specifications because of the complex chemical composition of modern oils, then why highlight phosphorous and zinc in the product guide? I was lead to believe they represent wear additives and are essential to protect bearings and such over long term.

Rep: Yes wear additives are represented by this information, but we cannot recommend a product that doesn’t meet the specs that your vehicle manufacturer says it needs to, based solely on the level of these additives. Anti-wear additives are essential, but every OEM will have their interpretation of how much they expect to be in the oil. You should be following their lead as they built the vehicle, therefore they know best. You must remember product guide info is typically brief and general. Some manufacturers may state that the oil requires a certain level of ZDDP, and therefore the info is there as a guide, but the product still needs to meet any API specs, etc...
Based on the info that you provided, the following (from highest level of protection down) are the products that are recommended for your vehicle:
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w30 (this one allows for oil change intervals up to 15000 miles/yearly (provided certain criteria are adhered to) if you so choose to follow this change interval
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 (might be better for those Detroit winters)
Mobil 1 5w30
Mobil Super Synthetic 5w30
Mobil Super High Mileage 5w30
Mobil Super 5w30

Me: I don't want to sound repetitive but I guess I am here for the sake of understanding the conceptual difference in oils - would I be right in assuming that choosing Mobil 1 5w30 will cause less wear over long term than choosing Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 because of Mobil 1 5w30's comparatively better anti-wear chemistry (albeit slightly) & comparatively worse cold flow chemistry (albeit slightly)? I understand that either of these can be safely used per OEM's requirement and one can't have it all.

Rep: There are a lot of things that can contribute to wear, but essentially you’ve got a grasp on the principals and are not wrong. More anti-wear in general should result in less wear, all things being equal. Better cold flow properties would also result in less wear as it would allow the equipment to get out of the boundary film lubrication phase quicker and into the hydrodynamic (which is the point at which metal surfaces would be physically separated by a wedge of oil), thus preventing any metal to metal contact.
Again though we always recommend based on specs. After all, the reason there are so many oils on the market today and they are not all good for the same vehicles, is that they are essentially formulated from “recipes” provided by major auto manufacturers themselves. Hope this helps.
 
But note that the rep ranked AFE above M1 5w30, yet the link you posted in your first entry indicates a lower ZDDP content for AFE than for 5w30.

ZDDP doesn't do ANYTHING until there is metal-to-metal contact in progress, so if that contact is not routinely occurring it won't reduce wear AT ALL. Its there solely as a golden parachute- protection of last resort. Turns out that sort of protection is needed all the time with slider cams, but as I've stated repeatedly, your engine would likely live a long healthy life without any ZDDP at all. Other AW components are sufficient for light valve springs and roller cams.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
There are a few oils people think have a weak additive pack but get good results and the best example is probably Valvoline's oils, they have a weak looking add pack on a VOA but return some of the best UOAs. Apparently some of their additives don't show up or aren't tested for


There's about 50 different chemical species in motor oils that do not show themselves in economical VOAs or UOAs.


Exactly.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: 19jacobob93
There are a few oils people think have a weak additive pack but get good results and the best example is probably Valvoline's oils, they have a weak looking add pack on a VOA but return some of the best UOAs. Apparently some of their additives don't show up or aren't tested for


There's about 50 different chemical species in motor oils that do not show themselves in economical VOAs or UOAs.




Exactly.


Exactly exactly! It's getting a bit annoying with "know-it-alls" critiquing oils based on a $25 UOA or VOA.
 
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