Mobil 1 4XT, RC51, 800 miles

[Michael SR]

sorry the short drain, i just didn't use the bike much the last 9 months. here it is:

honda rvt1000r
2,200 miles on bike
800 miles on oil
M1 4XT 10w40
no makeup oil
amsoil oil filter

Al 8
Cr 1
Fe 26
Cu 3
Pb 1

Moly 5
manganese 1
boron 139
silicon 7
sodium 2
calcium 2360
magnesium 527
phosph 964
zinc 964

(all others 0)

SUS 63.1
flashpoint 395
fuel insolubles 0.2

blackstone's comments:

"nothing too unusual showed up in this sample. all wear read close to averages for this type of engine, which is a very good indication of normal wearing parts. the viscosity was low, reading in the 30W range, but the flashpoint was good, so we don't think any fuel dilution was present."

this bike has gear-driven cams, i can't help but wonder if those didn't help shear it down. (those gears might be trivial compared to the gearbox though, i don't know.)

i ride it extremely hard when i do ride. it sees long durations sitting in traffic getting very hot, as well as multiple WOT runs every time i ride. i have also been known to gas it hard before the engine is thoroughly warmed.

there's amsoil 10w40 m/c oil in it now, i will have that analyzed as well. probably with more miles, though, maybe 1000-1500, if not even more. (i plan on commuting on the bike when it's not threatening rain, from now until it gets too cold.)

after that, i'm trying to decide between redline or schaeffer's 15w40. i'm open to suggestions.

-michael

 

[userfriendly]

Mike;
Does the engine share its oil with the transmission in the RC51? Transmissions chop-up non-synthetic multi-grade motorcycle oils very quickly and that is the reason I lean toward Caterpillar's wet clutch T0-4s that meet API CD and GL-3. I don't think a gear driven cam would hurt the oil much as the load is light compared to a gear driven BB Chev with 1200 lb valve springs.
Forgive me oil salesmen, I'm always looking and testing for the cheapest solution to lubrication problems.

 

[Bror Jace]

The shearing does not look good after so few miles. Actually this looks a lot like Honda’s factory oil. There’s an analysis or two on this site somewhere. That stuff sheared down quickly too.

Before trying Red Line and Schaeffer oils, you might want to check and see if your bike is moly-tolerant. Most late model Hondas specifically ask that you use an oil without molybdenum in it. Otherwise, I’d love to see how a 15W40 would hold up in this sort of an application ... especially those brands. If the friction level of the fluid allows for positive shifting, I’m betting they would work well.

There was a virgin oil analysis done on Motorcraft 15W40 and it showed no moly but a lot of boron. That stuff might be a very good choice for a bike. Maybe do a search?

As for the wear metals in your UOA, they look about average. There is usually 20-50PPM of iron in a moderately used cycle oil because of the gears in the transmission. This bike is also fairly new and might not be fully “broken in.” Still non-iron and non-aluminum (from the engine/transmission case) looks good which suggests the bearings and rings are wearing nicely (slowly).

As for switching oils each time, that’s gonna complicate analysis and wear trends. You never know when something might be wearing (or being protected) because of something in the previous oil.

Still, I feel the urge to experiment as well.

If that’s the case, I would suggest running each oil twice and then sampling once from the second batch. Given the low miles you put on your bike, it might take years before you figure out which oil works best.

“I plan on commuting on the bike when it's not threatening rain, from now until it gets too cold.”

Too cold as in 50-60 degrees?

Brrr!!

--- Bror Jace

 

[Jay]

Thanks for your post, Michael. It helps put the used oil analysis on my Honda VFR in perspective.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000339#000000

In 1,000 miles my wear metals were much lower, but I've got 40,000 miles on the bike.

Cu 3
Fe 2
Cr 0
Al 1
Pb 0

I was concerned about the shearing which seemed excessive in only 1,000 miles for Delvac 1. I was convinced that it was lab error, but if M1XT can shear the same amount in a similar engine then maybe my viscosity of 11.1 cSt is right.

 

[Chris]

I'd sure like to see a used oil analysis of Amsoil in a sportbike to see it it shears too. What can survive in this environment?

 

[Michael SR]

userfriendly -

yes, it shares the oil.

i bet the gear loading on that BBC is less than you think. the extreme spring pressures are helping to turn the cam, since all act on the same cam. sort of evens out. i mean, sure, it takes some force, just not what you'd think since some springs are helping instead of opposing at any given angle.

but ya, point taken.

bror -

ya, i realize the "test" is compromised. it's really not even an issue of cost as much as a lack of patience.

but what i'm doing is still better than nothing, right? i'm not even necessarily looking for the "best." i'm confident anything would keep the engine from dying an early death. i just kinda wanna know... you know?

ya, 50-degree weather is about my limit. i'm not 21 anymore!

all -

ya, the shearing surprised me. i guess maybe i underestimated how hard motorcycle engines are on oil. is there a VOA on the 4XT and amsoil? what if the 4XT was almost than thin to begin with? maybe i'll give the redline a shot, next time. of all the oils, seems like that one may have the best shot in the shear department, no?

-michael

 

[satterfi]

At least in my bike Redline does. Until I see a MX4T used oil analysis at 4k miles or more I wouldn't be to concerned that it can't go the distance.

I'll post my another Redline used oil analysis with at least 5k miles at the end of the summer.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris:
I'd sure like to see a used oil analysis of Amsoil in a sportbike to see it it shears too. What can survive in this environment?

---

 

[userfriendly]

Mike SR;
The pressures in the BBC are very high between the cam and followers, the rockers, pushrods, valves and valve guides. The automotive gear drives are often called upon to drive dry-sump oil pumps, fuel pumps and magnetos. Yes, some of the spring pressure is fed back to driving the cam, but there lies a big parasitic HP loss with those killer valve trains. They eat chain drives for breakfast.
The reason I asked if the engine shared oil with the transmission is because of the gear loading and shear rates that are far higher than from the cam drive.
Because of the way motorcycle transmissions shift, I think additives that "reduce gear traction" help out in both the shifting quality and reducing wear.
Reducing wear material that is present in the oil which originates from the transmission must be better for the engine.
After much "glitter" testing on 2 and 4 stroke MX bikes, and observing the oil screens, I found that the additives found in non-ep commercial truck transmission oils helped eliminate notchy shifting and the used oil glitter significantly, and base oil or SAE grade was hardly a factor.

 

[Michael SR]

i didn't think about the oil pump being driven off the cam. but, i've never seen a dry-sump oiling system that's gear driven. all the ones i've seen were belt driven, and external. the gear-driven ones are dry-sump systems with an internal oil pump? that's weird...

what's the deal with EP additives? are there things in an engine that are hurt by them? what's a non-EP transmission lube? is that a particular GL spec, or is the GL spec describing other characteristics?

lastly, if it's relatively easy to make it better, why are m/c-specific oils hardly any different from regular engine oils? are there additives not measured in the usual oil analyses? or are we being ripped off?

thanks.

-michael

 

[userfriendly]

Mike Sr;
I'm very close to getting over my head here. If I start commenting on additives it will be a laugher for the experts that lurk on this site.
The definition I have for GL-3 lubricants is "contains mild EP additives (inactive), as opposed to active EP additives found in GL-5 gear lubes.
I have discovered that some engine oils can pass a GL-3 requirement, and some GL-3 gear lubes can pass an engine oil requirement as long as the additives are non-active.
Quite often the engine oil classification that these GL-3s pass is the old obsolete CD standard. I don't know anyone that extends the drain intervals on their motorcycles beyond a few thousand miles where a CI-4 might venture.
A GL-3 with an inactive additive package may be used in gear applications that specify the use of an engine oil for a lubricant, and must be non-corrosive to copper. I look for a 1-A or 1-B copper strip pass.
The reason active GL-5s are not recommended is their active sul/phors additive package will harm the bright metal bushings and plain bearings found in transmissions.
There are engine oils that pass a power-shift transmission requirements such as the Allison C-4 rating. They are typically the HDMOs used in Diesel engines. If an engine oil is C-4 approved, it will more than likely easly pass the JASO MA friction disk test as well.
Other cross-over commercial lubricants are the Caterpillar TO-4 lubricants that are GL-3 rated, wet clutch/brake compatable, and usually carry a CD engine oil additive package to boot.
Up until late, TO-4s have been oly available in shear-stable single grades, but some synthetic all-season multi-grades are starting to show up in the market place.
The last type of transmission lubricant I mentioned are the ones designed for extended drain intervals for commercial over the road trucks with Eaton and Rockwell tansmissions.
I dug around and found out that the non-active additive in those fluids usually to be barium sulfonate.
Some companies referr to them as barium compounds.
I found and tried one brand of this type of transmission fluid that used a ligh level of ZDDP instead of barium compound, and the additive did not help the motorcycle's shifting or reduce the used oil glitter.
These manual transmission fluids if a synthetic, have a viscosity profile similar to a 15W50 engine oil. If it is a non-synthetic they are close to a 20W40.
The Cat TO-4 fluids range from 10W to SAE50. The Cat SAE 60s are not usually wet clutch compatable.
The problem with the barium compounded type of transmission fluids is that they do not have an engine oil additive package that is needed for use in four stroke engine/transmission combinations, to disperse and combat the corrosive by-products of combustion.
My monkey business with mixing engine oils with these lubricants is not considered scientific by any stretch of the imagination, but the brew is in my 50HP 02 XR650R.
How the lubricant would act in a bike with 130HP, or if the clutch would calf is anyone's guess.

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael SR:


...lastly, if it's relatively easy to make it better, why are m/c-specific oils hardly any different from regular engine oils? are there additives not measured in the usual oil analyses? or are we being ripped off?

---

I suspect the latter. I would love to see back-to-back motorcycle UOA comparisons between M1's pricy MX4T and Delvac 1.