Missouri Dex-Cool Lawsuit

[docsteveg]

Just got a notice in the mail about a class action lawsuit in Missouri against GM over dexcool. Here is the claim.

1. In 3.1, 3.5 and 3.8 liter engines, Dex-cool is incompatible with the lower intake manifold gasket and causes the gaskets to fail.

2. In 4.3 liter engines, Dex-cool causes corrosion and the formation of a mud-like substance called "sludge" that damages various engine and cooling system parts.

GM denies that both problems. I have two vehicles with a 3.5 liter engine and have had no problems with Dex-cool. Have had both over 5 years. Changed all fluids, filters, hoses last summer and felt the dex-cool was in good shape.

For people who want to look it up it is Michael Gutzler vs General Motors, Case No. 03V208786

 

[Mr. Boston]

It's my understanding issues develop when the uninformed *top off* coolant with the Ethylene glycol. However, I'm not an expert in chemistry...

 

[mazduh30]

Thought I read somewhere GM's defense is heading towards the lack of (recommended) maintenance by the owner's. My brother has a 3.8, performs the recommended maintenance on it never had a problem with it. Believe his Chev is about 6-7 years old.

 

[Jet]

Nothing wrong with DEXCOOL. People thinks it will last forever and thats when it becomes a problem period.

 

[obbop]

Seen evidence suggesting Dex-Cool dislikes the presence of atmospheric stuff, herein refered to as air though unsure if other gas or gasses could be responsible.

Too low of a coolant level allowing air into engine, radiator etc. is supposedly bad.

Not flushing system of trapped air bubble(s) within the system is also supposed to be bad.

Read elsewhere the gaskets in question where themselves defective and allowed air into cooling system..... blaming Dex-Cool for gasket failure may be placing the proverbial cart before the equally proverbial horse. Leaky bad gasket might be causing Dex-Cool sludge rather than Dex-Cool harming the gasket.

Complicated topic debated at a horde of message boards across the expanses of Webdom with no definitive answer(s) yet that I have seen.

Among many knowledgeable writers, though, there appears to be a fairly common agreement about keeping the air out of the cooling system and to keep an eye on leaks, air ingress points, using a good radiator cap, etc.

URL isn't handy but there is a site showing pics of Dex-Cool related goodies and tells of the best radiator cap to use. It's out there. I saw it. Even read it. On a site dealing with A/C and auto cooling, radiators, etc. Unless the site died.

Sniff.

 

[chiefsfan]

I am a Missourian with a 3100 with gasket issues I think related to Dexcool. I bought the car, a 97 Monte, new and changed the coolant every two years. Used distilled water and the Havoline brand DC that was supposed to be the factory fill. Never used the DC clones. Used new Stant rad. caps. The inside of my radiator looks great.
The infamous intake gasket failed in 2000 and was replaced under warranty. The water pump gasket failed in 2002. Water pump was fine. Replaced it myself. The intake gasket failed again in 2003 and this time I got to pay. A couple of weeks ago, a gasket failed in the lower part of the engine, prompting replacement by the dealer. They had to take apart most of the most of the front of the car to fix it. It even had to be aligned. $1100.
Just as a comparison, I also have the same 3100 engine in a 95 Olds Ciera. NO GASKET ISSUES, EVER. Used the green stuff.
I always thought the DC was OK, just lack of maintenance and exposure to air under the radiator cap was the demise of it.
I thought that GM had a bad gaskets or bad designs for this engine until this last 1100 fiasco sent me over the edge.
I'm interested to see what happens in this case.
I am going to keep the DC in it until something is done with the case, to prove that I have kept the DC in it and had the dealer do the work. Once the case is settled, I am giving it a good flush and refilling with the green.
I'm not going to pre-spend any money or hold my breath. I could be in appeals for years.

 

[occupant]

I think I've posted this link here before...

http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool-macs2001.htm

Best Dex-Cool article ever. Describes the "problems" perfectly. Lack of maintenance ("checking" the cooling system, not neccessarily changing coolant, is part of maintenance), bad radiator cap design on S/T trucks, and air in the system are the biggest problems.

 

[Jet]

Quote:

---

I am a Missourian with a 3100 with gasket issues I think related to Dexcool. I bought the car, a 97 Monte, new and changed the coolant every two years. Used distilled water and the Havoline brand DC that was supposed to be the factory fill. Never used the DC clones. Used new Stant rad. caps. The inside of my radiator looks great.
The infamous intake gasket failed in 2000 and was replaced under warranty. The water pump gasket failed in 2002. Water pump was fine. Replaced it myself. The intake gasket failed again in 2003 and this time I got to pay. A couple of weeks ago, a gasket failed in the lower part of the engine, prompting replacement by the dealer. They had to take apart most of the most of the front of the car to fix it. It even had to be aligned. $1100.
Just as a comparison, I also have the same 3100 engine in a 95 Olds Ciera. NO GASKET ISSUES, EVER. Used the green stuff.
I always thought the DC was OK, just lack of maintenance and exposure to air under the radiator cap was the demise of it.
I thought that GM had a bad gaskets or bad designs for this engine until this last 1100 fiasco sent me over the edge.
I'm interested to see what happens in this case.
I am going to keep the DC in it until something is done with the case, to prove that I have kept the DC in it and had the dealer do the work. Once the case is settled, I am giving it a good flush and refilling with the green.
I'm not going to pre-spend any money or hold my breath. I could be in appeals for years.

---

Havoline DC is in all four of my vehicles. 2000 Dodge with 150k, 86 Chevy with 218k, 95 Chevy with 63k and a 89 Pontiac with 9k.

Not one single issue related to DEXCOOL. Bad gaskets happen,
irregular casting causing leaks happens and lack of maintenance happens. To sum it up, CHIT happens. Dexcool is not to blame.

 

[The Critic]

The GM 3.1/3.4 engines had defective intake gaskets. They leaked REGARDLESS of coolant used. Until 2005 (or so), there wasn't a permanent fix for this problem. The new gasket kits that you can purchase from GM are now updated to correct this problem permanently.

I have Prestone All Makes All Models (arguably DexCool in a different color) in both a 92 Previa (very, very poorly maintained) as well as a 96 Saturn (mediocre system maintenance). No problems with either one. I did do an extensive chemical treatment + multiple machine water flushes before switching the van, but on the Saturn, I just did a drain and refill once with water, prior to installation.

 

[Dualie]

was riding in a friends escalade from Prescott AZ back to Scottsdale, AZ. In the middle of no where truck started to over heat the coolant turned to peanut butter. Made it to some po-dunk town bought some beer weighted for a tow truck.

Get a call after an hour tow truck only has room for 2 people. 2 of my friends had to ride under a blanket in the back of the escalade.

 

[Pluto5]

Agree with the critic. I changed my coolant regularly and the gaskets failed. Dealer said that GM would repair under warranty if I paid $100 deductible but then proceeded to try to charge me for coolant and oil change. Some nerve.

 

[another Todd]

I have many more leaks with my dex-cool filled vehicles than my green coolant filled vehicles. Make that many many more leaks. Barr's stop leak fixed all of them.

 

[onion]

I've got a couple of reasons why I won't use dexcool. Back in the late 90's, Ryder put dexcool in most of their over the road fleet. It made Cummins N14 head gaskets leak like a sieve- I replaced dozens of them under warranty, paid for by Texaco. Now here's where it gets wierd: They had us refill the engine with the same Dexcool... said that they had changed the additives to take care of the proble. To be fair... the trucks didn't come back- so they must've fixed something. Just the same, I don't like the idea of a coolant that makes otherwise good gaskets leak.

Also, I've owned and worked on several vehicles over the years where the dexcool had turned to "peanut butter". It's #@$%! near impossible to flush out. People debate the reasons why- air on the system seems to be the most popular theory... and it might be true. But the fact is, green antifreeze DOESN'T turn to sludge- even with air in the cooling system.

The only advantage to dexcool that I'm aware of is that it supposedly lasts longer... but I'm not about to leave it in the system any longer than I'd leave the green stuff, as I don't want to deal with dex-sludge. Therefore, I'll stick with good ol' reliable cheap green antifreeze... and change it every two years. When I get a "new" (to me) vehicle with dexcool in it, the first thing I do is flush the cooling system and fill it up with the green stuff.

 

[Thermo1223]

Onion your playing with fire, lasting longer is only one reason cars use long-life coolants.

The chemistry is also there to protect vital components in the cooling system, sometimes green doesn't play well and corrodes metal. It can also go bad and start to precipitate and deposit he additives on the inside of the cooling passages. Air is always the enemy no matter what coolant.

A fact is VW uses the same chemistry as Dex-cool and has never had issues with it to my knowledge.

Don't blame the coolant blame GM for machining parts improper and making inferior gaskets.

 

[onion]

I won't argue the point about the inferior GM gaskets- I've changed plenty of those.

Doesn't change the fact that I've also replaced dozens of head gaskets under the Dexcool warranty... nor the fact that dexcool routinely turns to peanutbutter.

Green stuff doesn't make otherwise good gaskets leak, and it doesn't turn to peanutbutter. It's also been used in plenty of aluminum engines. That may not convince you... but it's enough for me.

 

[Thermo1223]

MIL had a Saturn with Dexcool in it for 110k before sold, roughly the same fill from factory. Shop had do a HG repair right out of warrenty, not Dex-cool's fault either. It was a factory defect but not according to Saturn, otherwise why would it blow 7 days after the warrenty expired.

Improper maintenance turns Dex-cool to peanut butter or abusive use not just because it is there.

 

[onion]

Maybe so... but green stuff just doesn't turn to peanut butter.

I'd be interested to know WHY I'm "playing with fire". Exactly what are the magic additives and/or qualities of dexcool that make it superior to green stuff?

 

[Thermo1223]

Yes there are, I'm not about to understand why because I am not a chemist. I know they are there for a reason, I know why they wanted no silicate so I am not about to put a high silicate coolant in to replace it.

I mean this go back to people buying a car and not using the correct oil in the engine because I have always had luck with X brand regardless of what the manual said.

 

[onion]

Sounds like suspicion and superstition to me. You may well be correct, but I'm looking for good reasons WHY your apparent speculation is correct.