microGreen filters anyone

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
The run I'm currently doing is with M1 EP 0W-20. I wasn't originally planning to do a UOA after 30,000 miles, but I might go ahead to increase the experience base. Also, since the lab was Blackstone I don't know that the fuel dilution numbers are that accurate.


One thing we can do to check viscosity is to look at oil pressure (for a given RPM and engine temp). I think its some Chrysler V8s that actually set off the check-engine light if pressure isn't high enough. I'm not sure if I have access to oil pressure over the OBDII connector using ForScan. Lucky folks have oil pressure gauges.

That would cover minimum viscosity levels. More viscosity doesn't really hurt engines, to a point of course. Its too thin that is the hazard.

TBN worries, maybe just add 1/8 cup of Oil Extreme overbase at 15,000 miles to boost it.

 

[DBMaster]

As others suggested, the two filter changes necessitated 1/2 quart of makeup oil each. That may have been enough to boost TBN. It'll be interesting to see if I end up with higher than 2.1 using the M1 EP. Given the fact that it takes me two years to get to 30,000 miles maybe I can spring for the M1 AP and see how that one turns out. Even $50 isn't too bad spread over two years.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Donald
I am not sure how beneficial a microGreen filter is. The bypass part will reduce the contaminants somewhat, but it cannot help with depleted additives which will result in a low TBN. Nor will the filter help with a oxidized oil, change in viscosity.

The only situations I have come across where the TBN is still ok after 10K miles are pickup diesel engines with sumps that are 12 to 14 qts.


You should research bypass filtration and the effects on oil life. You will be amazed. There are even UOAs on this board showing the difference.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Do you think I should butt out of these MG threads? No matter what I say or offer up as experience the end result is always, "That's great, but I'll never leave my oil in for 30,000 miles."
People like it when somebody like you pushes the envelope. Keep the data flowing. I would do it if I thought the additives could take the long interval.
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
As others suggested, the two filter changes necessitated 1/2 quart of makeup oil each. That may have been enough to boost TBN. It'll be interesting to see if I end up with higher than 2.1 using the M1 EP. Given the fact that it takes me two years to get to 30,000 miles maybe I can spring for the M1 AP and see how that one turns out. Even $50 isn't too bad spread over two years.
Mobil claims to have longer lasting anti-oxidants in a generally durable M1 Annual Protection, and over two years, $50 is nothing. Either that or Amsoil SS of course. M1 EP should be fine too. Agreeing that "why not?" use the best oil off the shelf for those long runs, as its easy to grab the best. Mobil's claims on "anti-ageing": https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Do you think I should butt out of these MG threads? No matter what I say or offer up as experience the end result is always, "That's great, but I'll never leave my oil in for 30,000 miles."
People like it when somebody like you pushes the envelope. Keep the data flowing. I would do it if I thought the additives could take the long interval.


What "data"? The problem is that without a control there is no data.

 

[DBMaster]

My single UOA, or two UOAs, if I do another one, won't be sufficient evidence. As stated above, there is no control. My single vehicle, at different points in its life, using different oils (EP v. AFE) isn't going to prove much. What it does for me is give me enough confidence to continue doing what I'm doing. That's good enough for me. And, I can only control my own actions. YMMV.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
What "data"? The problem is that without a control there is no data.


DBMaster's UOAs can be compared against Blackstone's Universal Averages for his engine. Fe per mile mainly. Universal numbers are based on something like 5,000 miles.
And if TBN is 2 or more and viscosity looks good, then the 30k mile interval worked out OK. Thats about all we can see anyway.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
DBMaster's UOAs can be compared against Blackstone's Universal Averages for his engine. Fe per mile mainly. Universal numbers are based on something like 5,000 miles.
And if TBN is 2 or more and viscosity looks good, then the 30k mile interval worked out OK. Thats about all we can see anyway.


Wait, I thought "the claim" for the filters is about TBN retention, I've never seen anything about wear metal PPM on microGreen's website. You really aren't trying to suggest that an oil filter brand would make a statistically significant difference in wear metals that could be compared and contrasted against universal averages from a UOA?

Actually I was being overly optimistic in saying that there was only a missing control. In reality, there is no way microGreen's claim could be tested outside of a laboratory and I think you know that. Which begs the question, if they (microGreen) are making the claim where are their test results to substantiate it?

 

[oil_film_movies]

MicroGreen's only real claims are that various fleets around the country have been using their oil filters and the engines haven't failed. Saving money is the goal. Keeping the oil cleaner probably does have benefits.

DBMaster's results simply show us that wear metals can be low enough, viscosity is OK, and TBN can be OK in a 30k run.
Sure we do worry about visc drifting down too far, sludge and piston deposit buildup, seal conditioners & VII chemically altered, etc. over a long run with acid and mechanical shear exposure. For those concerned about it, just get cleaner oil with MicroGreen's oil filter and change oil annually.

 

[DBMaster]

Their claims, as I interpret them, seem to involve both additive (TBN) retention AND control of insolubles. If wear metals are either particles too small to be caught in the micro filter or dissolved metals then I would expect the levels to end higher than in oil that I changed at 10,000 miles. I do agree that there isn't an abundance of hard data to substantiate their claims. I am not a chemist or a tribolgist so I don't want or need all that data. I validated the concept of changing my oil every 30,000 miles using the MG procedure - for me, not for anyone else. This is in keeping with my overall philosophy of minimizing waste. It's not a tree-hugger thing with me, I just hate waste. When I read on BITOG about people changing synthetic oil every 3,000 or even 5,000 miles because it makes them feel good it irritates me and I find it incredibly wasteful. BUT, I do not expect that to result in anyone else doing what I do or even caring what I think.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
MicroGreen's only real claims are that various fleets around the country have been using their oil filters and the engines haven't failed. Saving money is the goal. Keeping the oil cleaner probably does have benefits.

DBMaster's results simply show us that wear metals can be low enough, viscosity is OK, and TBN can be OK in a 30k run.
Sure we do worry about visc drifting down too far, sludge and piston deposit buildup, seal conditioners & VII chemically altered, etc. over a long run with acid and mechanical shear exposure. For those concerned about it, just get cleaner oil with MicroGreen's oil filter and change oil annually.


Lol well that claim could likely be made for using no oil filter at all.

You nor anyone here knows if microGreen filters result in "cleaner" oil unfortunately. It's common on here for an observed result to be attributed to a particular variable when there are multiple uncontrolled variables, all of which could be a contributor. People usually attribute the outcome to their favorite variable when often times there are other much more significant contributors.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Wishing MicroGreen or some 3rd party had more results to share, its true. DBMaster's results look OK at least. I'd like to see the ring areas on the pistons on some cars after doing this 100,000 miles or so in fleets. Kind of like what mobil shows on their latest M1 Annual Protection engine teardowns.

Still, the concept of parallel path filtration is a good idea from an engineering standpoint. Its good to split the flow, send one thru a 2-micron filter, and the majority thru the normal glass-cellulose media. I'm going with that. Not good enough for some people understood and fair.