Melting trans-axles!

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Hi all, my name is Russ and I'm with Eggboy Racing. We've been having issues with our 1990 Taurus SHO MTX-IV transmission.

We are endurance racing the car (7, 14 and 24 hour races) on various road courses (Road America, Gateway, VIR, Heartland Park etc this year). We're very limited by the rules of the series to what we can do performancewise on the cars. We've done very little to the motor so we're running near stock hp/trq. numbers. Weight of the car is about 2700 lbs. Stock clutch. 180 treadware tires, so nothing very sticky. No standing starts or anything like that.

We've been eating transmissions. In an effort to solve problems we've welded the internals of the diff. We've secured the diff pins by placing a aluminum ring around the diff, over the pins and then welding the ring to the diff itself. That mod alone worked great and we almost got an entire season out of the last transmission. At the last race however, it was combination of circle track and road course with ~ 4 hours in each setup. Needless to say the transmission ate itself after about 18 hours. The case was so hot it melted the plastic clutch fork bushing as well as the vent.

Up until that point we had been using various ATF's with the last fluid being Royal Purple. The fluid was toasted. All of the internals of the transmission looked as if someone took a belt grinder to them. Only the diff was salvageable.

We initially planned on adding a cooler/pump to the next trans case. We've added a trans temp gauge and tapped the bottom of the housing to pull the fluid and plan on the return going in the filler opening. We've also tapped the vent hole and plan on adding an expansion tank and overfilling the case.

We've had a local trans guy suggest running Mobil 1 5w20 in the trans and that any sort of ATF will not last due to what we are doing with the car. Not being transmission guys, the thought of engine oil in a trans that requires ATF/thin fluid from the factory causes most of the team some hesitation. My research on the subject has brought me to BIOTG and I've learned a lot! Would you also suggest Mobil 1 5w20 or is there a different fluid you would use?

Thanks in advance for ANY advice you can give and thank you for your time!
 
For a fluid that will handle the heat, I'd look to Redline, as their lubes tend to have the highest heat resistance FWIW.

But your idea of a cooler and pump are sound, and will likely make a bigger difference than fluid choice.
 
I agree; fluid alone won't solve a problem that originates from excessive heat. It can help.

Have you thought about trying to get airflow to the transaxle? maybe rig up some ducting so forced air from the front of the car will constantly be forced around the transaxle case while the car is at speed? Similar to how air cooled aircraft engines are cooled?
 
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Redline was the first thing I thought of as well.

The guy whose answer I'd want to hear is Molakule. He knows the lubrication needs of transmissions and the characteristics of the different fluids extremely well.

Paging Molakule!
 
Originally Posted By: sciphi
For those of us who are un-educated, is this a manual or an automatic?


The MTX-IV is a manual trans.
 
So is this behind the 4 cyl engine? 4 cyl class? Can you still find these transmissions?

I would worry most about an improper fluid hurting your synchros, but if your driver knows how to double clutch this may not be a dealbreaker. The New Venture gearbox in my dodge dakota called for either ATF or 10w30 motor oil, so there are synchros out there that can take both.

I +1 on the cooler idea. Maybe something as ghetto as having the windshield squirter hose drip on it.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
So is this behind the 4 cyl engine? 4 cyl class? Can you still find these transmissions?

I would worry most about an improper fluid hurting your synchros, but if your driver knows how to double clutch this may not be a dealbreaker. The New Venture gearbox in my dodge dakota called for either ATF or 10w30 motor oil, so there are synchros out there that can take both.

I +1 on the cooler idea. Maybe something as ghetto as having the windshield squirter hose drip on it.


The SHO had a Yamaha-built V-6, small, maybe 3.0? but pretty powerful, 220 HP or so...
 
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I can't imagine any fluid change would help nearly as much as adding a cooler. I think that if I were in your place I'd go with 80% synchromesh fluid and 20% synthetic 75w90. Of course, considering how often I do stupid things, it might not be a good idea.
 
At least until '93, SAAB 900 manuals used 10-30 in the transmission, even though it was not part of the crankcase. The dif was part of the unit. The heat generated is an an indication of the fact that no transmission transmits to the wheels 100% of the power supplied to it. This is usually a problem in automatics rather than manuals. Obviously even in "SHO" service, Ford didn't think a cooler was necessary, but they weren't building them to road race. You might want to "poke around" the pits a bit to see what other guys are doing to prolong the life of such configurations. Reducing internal friction always helps, but that can alter the syncro behaviour.
 
Prior to about '86, the SAAB manual transmission used ATF. When the factory changed the fluid specification to motor oil, I changed to Mobil 1 10-30. Made a difference in cold weather shifting. I got almost 400K out of that transmission, the front subframe rusted out before the transmission quit.
 
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Hi all!

Thanks so much for all the responses! Makes a new guy feel welcome!

We race in the Chumpcar series (www.chumpcar.com). It limits us to a $500 car and the only mods we can do without penalty are safety related. The car runs a Yamaha 3.0L V6 that from the factory was 225hp/200lb ft. We have the car pretty dialed in but the trans is the weakest link in the chain. The MTX-IV was only in the manual SHO's and a single year of a V6 topaz/tempo. So quantities are limited! It is a Mazda trans from what we've learned.

We have been running Royal Purple ATF all last season. The fluid never looked too terrible when we would flush it after a race.

I like the idea of getting air flow pointed at the trans. I wonder if it would do any good for our welding guru to attach some aluminum fins on to act as a heat sink.

The pump ideas we have looked at are cost prohibitive so far for an off the shelf solution. We had wondered if some sort of diesel pump out of the salvage yard could do the job.

First race is 5 weeks out. Keep the ideas coming!
 
Maybe its time to step up to a thicker and more stout oil with EP capabilities?

I would have thought a synthetic GL4 such as Redline MT85 or Amsoil MTG would do the trick. ATF has next to no EP additives at all IIRC, just AW and engine oil is no different (just more of it). Shifting might suffer but if it means your trans lives to fight another race, it'd be worth it.
 
How about using ATF , but plumbing in some flow from the power steering pump return? A nozzle or two in the right spot of the case and a drain back to the reservoir.
 
Originally Posted By: Leo
Maybe its time to step up to a thicker and more stout oil with EP capabilities?

I would have thought a synthetic GL4 such as Redline MT85 or Amsoil MTG would do the trick. ATF has next to no EP additives at all IIRC, just AW and engine oil is no different (just more of it). Shifting might suffer but if it means your trans lives to fight another race, it'd be worth it.


yep, or a 75W-90 like Neo RHD or Motul Gear 300, something that will provide EP protection for hours on end.

[edit]

I'd pay for Terry Dyson's (and Molakule's) brains in this instance.

Google Dyson Analysis, Terry knows race transmission requirements.
 
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I think the key question is whether the initial wear that triggered the failure is caused by viscosity breakdown or not. If the viscosity is tanking and the oil is thinning out too much to adhere to parts and properly lubricate, then running an engine oil win a grade like 10w40 or 15w50 (equivalent to gear fluids in the 75w90 to 80w140 range, roughly) could certainly help. There's nothing magic about ATF in a manual transmission- its just a fluid capable of lubricating gears in a convenient weight. It has a lot of unneeded friction modifier additives intended for the clutch packs in an automatic. Running an engine oil is the same story- its a good lubricant but it has detergent/dispersant additives that a manual trans doesn't really need. Even straight gear oils rated at GL-4 or GL-5 have extreme pressure additives for hypoid gears in rear axles, which rear drive manual transmissions and most FWD manual transaxles don't generally need. Which is where things like Redline MTL or MT-90 and Royal Purple Synchromax come in. They're a bit more optimized for manual transmissions, but then you still only have about 2 viscosity choices: MTL and Synchromax are "light" like ATF (generally equivalent to 30-wt engine oil) and MT-90, which is a 90-wt (about equivalent to 40-wt engine oil). Using engine oil or gear oil instead of ATF opens up more viscosity options, and that might be the ticket if the heat and thinning of the lube is a cause, not a result, of your failures.

FWIW, here's a reference that shows how gear oil viscosity ratings match up to engine oil viscosity ratings. Why on earth they didn't just use the same scale is a mystery to me...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
 
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