Many newbie Qs for tranny on 98 V6 Accord (gurus?)

[ZMO]

Newbie here who just bought a 1998 V6 LX Honda Accord (automatic) with 60K two weeks ago ... and yes knowing many troubles with 98-02 V6 trannies.

Please bear with the complete history before my questions. Also if my questions seems too nitpicky, bordering on paranoia, I apologize. I've never spent this much for a car in my life. Took a lot of savings. As such, I like to make sure I got the tranny thing right before I drive the car another 10K or 1yr before the next D&F.

I bought it from 2nd owner, who only had it for 7 months. 1st owner is his trusted rich friend who always serviced at dealer, he said. Selling not due to problems. But, verifiable overseas job transfer. Test drive was very nice and good. Engine compartment looks like new (without steam clean or wash). However, no maintenance receipts except for 2 recent oil changes.

The first thing I did was bought a 12qt case of ATF-Z1 from dealer. Checked the fluid, dark brownish red, but still clear. Then I drained and refilled (D&F) with 3qts of Z1. The tranmission get a lot smoother. Idle seems smoother. Not much metal flakes in the magnetic drain plug. Drove 500 miles, D&F again. No change in shifting quality. Another 500 miles. D&F again. Still no more changes. After 3 D&F, the ATF color is like new now.

Then last week, after lenghty Internet research, I added a 10oz bottle of Lubeguard Red after emailing and getting (very fast & courteous) reply from the higher up senior person at Lubeguard. On the bottle it says add the whole bottle. If tranny more than 10 quarts, add 1 oz per quart.

Now, the shifting has changed a lot. The thing is I don't know if it is better (the way it should be), as I have been a stick/manual guy all my life.

1.
After 3 drains & fills (no Lubeguard), the 1st-2nd shift is pretty firm. From a dead stop, if I accelerate, the car started moving at 1500-2000 RPM and get into gear (or shift to another gear)* at 2250RPM. Even though not slipping, I think the acceleration is a little sluggish for a V6. I was told it's normal for a V6 due to V-Tec. Is my shift point normal? * Somebody told me that the first shift point from a stop is into 1st gear. Not into 2nd in Accord?

2.
After 3 D&F (no Lubeguard), once in a while my tranny will shift at 3000RPM. Is it too high for V6? even though the car moves relative to the RPM increase; no slipping.

3.
Is 10 oz the right amount of Lubeguard or too much for 7.6qt of total tranny capacity?

4.
After Lubeguard, the shifting has gone very soft. I can barely feel 1st-2nd that was firm before. Upshifts are just like before; on time and around the same RPM. But the downshifts are so much quicker and smoother. It is so smooth, it is scary. Now, I don't know if such buttery like feeling is good for tranny or bad or is it just personal preference. I guess what I'm asking is firm shifts = more wear or soft shifts = more wear? If a little firmness is better for the tranny, I guess I can D&F my last 3qts to dilute the Lubeguard to 5.0 oz for 7.6 ATF sump.

5.
MPG on the hwy which I'm told could be an indicator of bad tranny has been really good; 30-34 MPG (EPA rated 28). No delays in shifting. No funny noises. No jerking. No flashes on the dash. Still, I worry a lot about it since there are lots of people with 3rd tranny in 100K. Is there a best way to test any abnormalities in transmission shifting behavior?

6.
How can I improve and maintain the tranny to last a long time?

7.
Does anybody think I should get Lubeguard out?

I appreciate all your help.

 

[The Critic]

1. Not sure

2. As long as it isn't flaring, slipping or display a CEL, there's nothing to worry about.

3. Yes.

4. Not sure what you mean by "soft." Is it a smooth, yet positive engagement? If so it's probably fine.

5. If it works, don't worry about it.

6. These transmissions are either a hit or miss. I know of ones that barely last 100k yet others that last 200k with only one fluid change. Given your mileage if the transmission fails, out-of-pocket is likely to be less than $1500.

7. I'm not a fan of it, but I don't see any reason to waste the Z1 fluid. No amount of extra maintenance will help these poorly designed transmissions.

8. Get your timing belt, water pump, drive belts and spark plugs changed. The interval is seven years or 105,000 miles, whichever comes first.. Time does take its toll on rubber belts. This engine IS interference, so if the belt breaks your cylinder head is history.

 

[AcuraTech]

No amount of coddling will help these transmissions last longer. It's really a roll of the dice. Just follow normal maintenance procedures and hope for the best.

 

[ZMO]

Thank you for the quick reply.

2. What type of shifting behavior is called flaring? Because even if it does, I don't think I know?

8. Yes. Timing belt definitely is in my mind. I'm saving for it now while driving this accord only as a second car. I did look at the condition of the outside belts. They appear fine. You might be able to see it in some of the pictures here of the engine bay. I don't know. Some say it can give an idea of the condition of the timing belt inside.

 

[The Critic]

2. Flaring is generally a spike in engine RPM while attempting to engage a gear. In other words, delayed gear engagement. I wouldn't worry about it though as flaring is rarely seen on these transmissions. When they fail, they either downshift to 2nd gear, shift very harshly, slip or simply refuse to shift.

8. Drive Belts usually wear out more quickly than the timing belt. Timing Belts rarely fail on Hondas. I know of a few people who ran theirs out to the 200k mark (but it only took them about seven years) and they didn't have a problem. Not recommended though.

 

[The Critic]

Also, shop around when you decide to do the timing belt. There are a lot of independent shops around my area who will replace the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, drive belts, coolant and idler roller for under $700 total.

 

[ZMO]

AcuraTech:
Which is what I do now. I did know of the problems before I bought it. But, when I consulted 2 trusted close friends, both professional ASE, one said "don't drive a car if you're afraid of breaking on you." The other Honda specialist said "even if it breaks at 100K, it's less than $1500 to replace the whole thing," which is pretty much what The Critic said.

When I saw the engine condition of the car, I kind of fell in love with it. I don't mind minor exterior scratches and dings since I'll get them in NYC & DC as well. Also, the quietness and the perfect drive (no wobble, no brake pulsations, perfect alignment, no fluid leaks, no nothing, just buy and drive kind of car) made me buy it.

 

[AcuraTech]

Don't get me wrong. These are nice cars to drive. Other than the transmission, they are generally very reliable cars. Honda V6's from the last 10 years are second to none, and with a bit of maintenance will run perfectly for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Every car has issues, some more than others. I'm just saying that over zealously maintaining the trannys on these doesn't seem to help much. Maintaining it is good, but don't put too much time into it.

 

[ZMO]

Thanks Critic. Appreciate the heads up. Now, I definitely get an idea on the cost when I do it. I was trying to save up to around $1200 before I go to the shop. Now, with around $700, I can get it done sooner. I think my Honda mechanic friend working at Shell attached garage will probably help me as well.

AcuraTech
Yes, they definitely are very nice car. And I agree with you on spending too much time. I tend to obsess with cars I bought till they are over 100K. New car (new for me) syndrome, I guess. Then, the new car overzealousness wear off and maintenance is normal again and around 150K, I switched back to dino oil

.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

Critic, since you mentioned flaring...
my '99 (4cyl) has 105k miles and it seems like what I am experiencing from the 2nd-to-1st downshift is similar to what you describe as 'flaring'.
Its like a delayed shift accompanied with a slight rise in rpm. Its very subtle, not very obvious, but its there. Just to get an idea - How much of a increase in rpm and delay in shift can be considered as a 'flare'.
Its been happening for a long time now(maybe last 30k miles?) but I haven't seen the problem worsening, or any other issues with the trans.
Do you think this could be anything I should be concerened about ? What do you think it might be ? A solenoid ? Although if I *try* to hear *closely* in a quiet garage I can hear one buzzing (engine shutoff but iginition switch ON).
Not sure if the two symptoms are related.

 

[Anduril]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Also, shop around when you decide to do the timing belt. There are a lot of independent shops around my area who will replace the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, drive belts, coolant and idler roller for under $700 total.

Or there are shops that try to tell you that your timing chain engine needs its belt replaced.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: youdontwannaknow
Critic, since you mentioned flaring...
my '99 (4cyl) has 105k miles and it seems like what I am experiencing from the 2nd-to-1st downshift is similar to what you describe as 'flaring'.
Its like a delayed shift accompanied with a slight rise in rpm. Its very subtle, not very obvious, but its there. Just to get an idea - How much of a increase in rpm and delay in shift can be considered as a 'flare'.
Its been happening for a long time now(maybe last 30k miles?) but I haven't seen the problem worsening, or any other issues with the trans.
Do you think this could be anything I should be concerened about ? What do you think it might be ? A solenoid ? Although if I *try* to hear *closely* in a quiet garage I can hear one buzzing (engine shutoff but iginition switch ON).
Not sure if the two symptoms are related.

PM me your e-mail address and I can send you a video of a flaring transmission.

Anyway, you have a 99...you should take the vehicle straight to the dealer as there's a good chance that they'll cover most of the repair under warranty. Do it now before they won't give you any coverage at all.

 

[dorkiedoode]

i think we both are in the same boat. haha my v6 accord have *flaring* problems too. Going from 1st to 2nd, i can actually hear the RPM trying to get up to 3k before it shifts. if i don't give it enough gas, you will able to hear a high rev sound until it gets there. Shifting from R to D is so firm it makes the car go *BOOM* (this problem happen during a cold and warm engine). After switching out of Z-1 and putting in maxlife shifting is MUCH better when the engine is warmed up, although the problem still exist during a cold start. Now i'm running Amsoil and i am noticing much better improvements. my MPGs are horrible i tell you! I average around 22-23 during fall and 18 during winter. we will see if it improves after SI-1. i was running lucas 3 tanks before, didn't seem to help a bit (actually made MPG lower).

 

[ThirdeYe]

The cold hard shift from R to D is pretty much normal. Every Honda automatic I've seen has done it, whether it's from one of their V6's or I4's. My car does it even, and my car has had its fluid changed regularly, and twice in a year since I've had it with Amsoil ATF. On the Team-Integra forums this is also very common. As far as I know though, these Integra AT's are still fairly reliable. I know of a bunch with high miles on them (like mine).

 

[ZMO]

dorkiedoode:
From what I've read, cold shift characteristics like that seems normal. Even my manual car is like that when cold.

What kind of Maxlife? The 75000 Mile DexIII/Marc ATF with seal leaks thing? I'm thinking of AMSOIL too. But, only after 150K miles. By then, I'll be ok even if it fails. Don't get me wrong. I don't mean that it will fail with AMSOIL. Just that, I wouldn't mind EVEN IF it fails.

There is a post in Transmission UOA section about somebody using AMSOIL in 6th gen accord like ours. The wear metal seems to be more compared to Z1. Of course, that might just means that AMSOIL cleans a lot better. Still. I'm afraid to take a chance. Not until around 150K when the goodwill tranny replacement chance from Honda is long gone

Your MPGs are highway driving? Or combined? If combined, I don't think it's that bad. Just that I've never measured my MPG with city driving or combined driving. Just pure highway only. In the city, it's just too many variables. Length of traffic light, waiting for passengener crossings, the traffic condition, and the road (nasty potholes in NYC). Also, even if I get less than 20 MPG in city, I'll still be happy because

1. it's still cheaper than calling a cab (at least in NYC).
2. most of my city trips are unavoidable (doctors appointment, groceries, and wife's shopping

etc.), but highway trips aren't.
3. I think if highway MPG is within range, city probably would be too.

May be you drive harder since yours is a sportier coupe? May be a little tuning (sparkplus/wires, distributor cap, air filter, pcv, etc) would help?

 

[dorkiedoode]

Originally Posted By: Zaccord
dorkiedoode:
From what I've read, cold shift characteristics like that seems normal. Even my manual car is like that when cold.

What kind of Maxlife? The 75000 Mile DexIII/Marc ATF with seal leaks thing? I'm thinking of AMSOIL too. But, only after 150K miles. By then, I'll be ok even if it fails. Don't get me wrong. I don't mean that it will fail with AMSOIL. Just that, I wouldn't mind EVEN IF it fails.

There is a post in Transmission UOA section about somebody using AMSOIL in 6th gen accord like ours. The wear metal seems to be more compared to Z1. Of course, that might just means that AMSOIL cleans a lot better. Still. I'm afraid to take a chance. Not until around 150K when the goodwill tranny replacement chance from Honda is long gone

Your MPGs are highway driving? Or combined? If combined, I don't think it's that bad. Just that I've never measured my MPG with city driving or combined driving. Just pure highway only. In the city, it's just too many variables. Length of traffic light, waiting for passengener crossings, the traffic condition, and the road (nasty potholes in NYC). Also, even if I get less than 20 MPG in city, I'll still be happy because

1. it's still cheaper than calling a cab (at least in NYC).
2. most of my city trips are unavoidable (doctors appointment, groceries, and wife's shopping

etc.), but highway trips aren't.
3. I think if highway MPG is within range, city probably would be too.

May be you drive harder since yours is a sportier coupe? May be a little tuning (sparkplus/wires, distributor cap, air filter, pcv, etc) would help?


I used the regular maxlife ATF(not seal leak/yellow cap i think), mine was all red.

I agree if this car was lower mileage, I don't think that I would've switch to alternative ATF but since its at 145k now, heck i don't care! I get a new car after this one gone anyways (It was a good experiences with new ATF, I heard way too many people say to only using Z-1 and never even tried an alternative

But I still love my car, always wanted one of these 98-02.

For MPG i drive about 85% highway and 15% city. My school is about 30 miles away so 60 miles back and forth. Driving fast? Hmm I guess I sort of step on it once in a while but not that often. I mostly go about 75MPH on the freeway but recently slowed down to 65 because of rain!

For maintenance, I recently changed my sparks plug to iridium, new cabin filter, new air filter, new pcv, tires are @ 32-34.

About the car during cold shift. Do you guys hear the same *BOOM* kinda sound and it jerks harshly from D-R?

 

[ZMO]

Originally Posted By: dorkiedoode

I used the regular maxlife ATF(not seal leak/yellow cap i think), mine was all red.

Thanks. I'll look for it next time.

Originally Posted By: dorkiedoode

For MPG i drive about 85% highway and 15% city. My school is about 30 miles away so 60 miles back and forth. Driving fast? Hmm I guess I sort of step on it once in a while but not that often. I mostly go about 75MPH on the freeway but recently slowed down to 65 because of rain!

I think for your kind of driving, it might be a little low. Not much. You can also look at some polls at driveaccord.net and v6performance.net to get an idea how others with similar cars are doing.

Originally Posted By: dorkiedoode

For maintenance, I recently changed my sparks plug to iridium, new cabin filter, new air filter, new pcv, tires are @ 32-34.

Then, I'm afraid I don't know what else to check for.

Originally Posted By: dorkiedoode

About the car during cold shift. Do you guys hear the same *BOOM* kinda sound and it jerks harshly from D-R?

Yes. During cold shift, the shift from D to R or R to D is delayed (about a second or so) and the noise is louder too. It's hard to describe the level of harshness with words. But, it's harsher and louder than when hot for sure. I was told it's normal.