Major vehicle title issue

[14Accent]

I'll try to keep this short and sweet. While my sister was living away in AZ, she purchased a car. She took out a loan, paid cash, and the car came with a title. That's about all I know. It sounds to me like she took out a personal loan, unsecured, but she isn't sure. I'm currently waiting to see loan documents that should be emailed soon.

What I know:

The car is currently titled in TX. When she went to the DMV in AZ, they refused to transfer the title for some reason. Why, I do not know. My sister recalls something about needing a "bill of sale" because "the name on the title didn't match". This is verbatim, not verified in any way by me, as I was unable to help AVOID this situation in the first place.

Upon trying to contact the seller, MIA. Of course. Phone disconnected etc. etc.

She insured the vehicle. How, I'm not quite sure. Here in MN you have to OWN a vehicle to have insurance on it. The car had full coverage on it.

She was side swiped while merging on the highway one afternoon, car sustains damage and she initiates an insurance claim.

Geico eventually denies the claim, as the car was totaled however my sister has no proof of ownership for payout.

Geico tries, as does the bank to track down the legal owner. Geico gave up and told my sister to come get the car from the storage lot. The bank that holds the loan APPARENTLY discovered who owns the vehicle, however I have yet to verify that as well.

At the moment, the car is in AZ. We're in MN. The title is registered in TX.

The car was never registered in AZ, I asked my sister and she's pretty sure there's still a temp tag in the back window from when she purchased it. I'm really hoping it's there, if for no reason other than to get SOME kind of insight into who legally owns the car. As far as I'm concerned, the car is abandoned by it's previous owner and she should be able to apply for a title with the correct documentation. It's ACQUIRING that information that's going to be the issue.

So, I implore you fellow BITOG'ers, does anyone have any advice moving forward?

 

[CleverUserName]

Your sister sounds like an airhead. She needs someone who is competent and responsible to make decisions for her as it sounds like she is incapable of making them herself.

 

[cashmoney]

Ouch - that is a bad story. Pretty sure there is not going to be a happy ending. Whoever sold the car may not have had any right to sell it unless they were the owner that is named on the title. If so a valid bill of sale signed and dated by the owner listed on the car title would solve the problem. If someone other than owner listed on the title sold the car and there is no valid bill of sale your sister may be pretty much hosed.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted by CleverUserName
Your sister sounds like an airhead. She needs someone who is competent and responsible to make decisions for her as it sounds like she is incapable of making them herself.


Thanks for the help...

There's a reason you help your family, airhead or not. Guess you've never needed any help?

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted by CleverUserName
Your sister sounds like an airhead. She needs someone who is competent and responsible to make decisions for her as it sounds like she is incapable of making them herself.



And your useless reply adds nothing. Easy to diss a guy's sister on the internet.

To add context, here in Az it's common for cars to change hands in a parking lot with money and title exchanged and everyone going their own way. Go to DMV or title place next day or whatever. You can get a temp license online with the VIN. Obviously safest to go to a title place first but many people don't.

We bought a pop-up in May from an old guy snowbird and I failed to notice he put his info in the buyer section of the title until I went to get it licensed. Had to get a DMV power-of-attorney form signed by him. Guess that makes me an airhead and incapable of doing simple transactions.

Sorry for your sister's troubles. I've found that people at the private license & title businesses are much more helpful with this sort of thing than DMV workers. When you have better info on the particulars you might try calling one of these places. Our local place is http://footework.com/ but there are lots of them. Good luck.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted by AZjeff
Originally Posted by CleverUserName
Your sister sounds like an airhead. She needs someone who is competent and responsible to make decisions for her as it sounds like she is incapable of making them herself.



And your useless reply adds nothing. Easy to diss a guy's sister on the internet.

To add context, here in Az it's common for cars to change hands in a parking lot with money and title exchanged and everyone going their own way. Go to DMV or title place next day or whatever. You can get a temp license online with the VIN. Obviously safest to go to a title place first but many people don't.

We bought a pop-up in May from an old guy snowbird and I failed to notice he put his info in the buyer section of the title until I went to get it licensed. Had to get a DMV power-of-attorney form signed by him. Guess that makes me an airhead and incapable of doing simple transactions.

Sorry for your sister's troubles. I've found that people at the private license & title businesses are much more helpful with this sort of thing than DMV workers. When you have better info on the particulars you might try calling one of these places. Our local place is http://footework.com/ but there are lots of them. Good luck.


Thanks for the help. That's pretty much how it works here in MN as well, that's exactly how I bought my Cadillac. All you do is verify the name/address/vin on the title match what's written in the "sellers" section and you're golden. I think the problem here is the fact that it was a TX title being transferred to AZ, however I'm not really sure why that matters to the person behind the counter.

I hadn't considered going to a private license facility, I think around here AAA operates those. Maybe I'll give them a shot, although I have more than my share of dealing with the DMV here and have gotten quite good at knowing what questions to ask and who to direct them towards.

 

[BigD1]

If that title was notarized, then the notary should have never approved it if the seller name did not match title holder.

 

[KneeGrinder]

Well, I'm sorry some are quick to dish out harsh replies without any help.

I had to deal with something like this title issue, without the interstate, and accident thing. But it was a looooong time ago, and I'm sure things have changed.

What I had to do was, go to the DMV, find the last registered owner, send a registered letter requesting a bill of sale or some type of correspondents, which you will most likely not receive, or you will receive the letter back with a stamp of "Not At This Address" Then you will have proof that you tried to contact the last registered owner. The DMV then allowed me to apply for a title at that time.


You might also try a registration service company and just pay them, they can do things you can't! It's worth paying them to do it for you. Goodluck, be determined

 

[dishdude]

Since the title was out of state and not in your sister's name, they probably wanted a bill of sale.

How much did she pay for the car? If everyone is now in MN and you have a wrecked car left in AZ, it might not be worth the effort of dealing with. If there's a bit invested in the vehicle, there are messenger services you can hire to take care of the paperwork.

 

[14Accent]

Originally Posted by dishdude
Since the title was out of state and not in your sister's name, they probably wanted a bill of sale.

How much did she pay for the car? If everyone is now in MN and you have a wrecked car left in AZ, it might not be worth the effort of dealing with. If there's a bit invested in the vehicle, there are messenger services you can hire to take care of the paperwork.


I believe that's what happened. At least, that's how she made it sound.

She paid $8k for the car, I don't know how much she has left but she's still paying. Her significant other is still in AZ, thank god, so that helps. He can correspond things on that end.

I'm trying to get a photograph of the temp. sticker in the back window, in the hopes that that gives some kind of useful information. Assuming it's still there.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted by 14Accent
Originally Posted by dishdude
Since the title was out of state and not in your sister's name, they probably wanted a bill of sale.

How much did she pay for the car? If everyone is now in MN and you have a wrecked car left in AZ, it might not be worth the effort of dealing with. If there's a bit invested in the vehicle, there are messenger services you can hire to take care of the paperwork.


I believe that's what happened. At least, that's how she made it sound.

She paid $8k for the car, I don't know how much she has left but she's still paying. Her significant other is still in AZ, thank god, so that helps. He can correspond things on that end.

I'm trying to get a photograph of the temp. sticker in the back window, in the hopes that that gives some kind of useful information. Assuming it's still there.


If she paid $8k for the car and it's totaled, that's definitely worth chasing. Is Geico her insurance company or the person that hit her?

If she has full coverage, her policy should cover her on recently purchased vehicles that weren't registered yet, but you'll need to find a way to generate a bill of sale...might be time to get creative since the seller is MIA.

 

[urrlord]

Good luck ,sounds ike a royal PITA.

 

[Omahaug]

Originally Posted by CleverUserName
Your sister sounds like an airhead. She needs someone who is competent and responsible to make decisions for her as it sounds like she is incapable of making them herself.

I have to admit this made me laugh, because it's true. She did everything she could possibly do wrong.

It sounds like:
1. She bought through private transaction.
2. She applied for and received a loan by herself and it's probably a non-autoloan? Because if it was an auto-loan there's no way they would have signed off without everything being in order for them to put a lien on it.
3. She gave the check or whatever from the loan directly to the seller and received the car as well as a title for the car from the seller with no other sale documents or signature.

The main problem right now is there's no proof of ownership, the title is not proof of ownership if it's not in her name. It just means she has physical possession of the title. The title usually has some form on it that allows a buyer and seller to sign. If she just received the title without a bill of sale or the seller's signature on there, I don't know what you can do? How are they to know whether she just stole the title? I've always assumed the states made the laws like this because if she does steal a title and forge the signature, at least the real owner can prove it by showing the signatures don't match. Without a signature they won't even bother. They either want a real signature or a forged signature they can send you to jail with, no signature is usually not an option.

The title becomes proof of ownership when there's a signature on it from the seller releasing the title to her (along with any other state requirement such as the odometer statement). Without that, ownership cannot be released unless the seller is dead, in which case it's going through probate or you have a death certificate to register with.


All of this could have been avoided by the way had she tried to register the car as soon as she bought it. Because then she could have realized she had no idea what was actually required to buy/sell a car and she could have contacted the seller. Now the seller is MIA or possibly dead and she's out of luck. It's kind of a punishment for driving around without a proper registration or smog checks in the first place, she got around free while the rest of the people had to pay. At least she drove with insurance.

 

[BrocLuno]

Bummer ...

You can go on "People Search" and other web sites and look for the TX owner. They may still be around, but not easily found ... Get a DMV power of Attorney to finish the transaction.

If there is/was a temp tag, that should suffice for you'all to prove that you were "in process".

If you can't find the original owner, you may be able to prove that you did due diligence and get a "bonded title". That would be up to the bonding company ... If you can get a bonded title and you have "in process" due diligence, you have a claim against the insurance co.

 

[Cujet]

I wish you and your sister the very best. Hope you can get the BoS and signatures you need from the seller/previous owner.


Some of the best advice I've ever received from an accountant, was in all things, to go conventional and normal. Especially if you have limited means. As it prevents disaster. Choose the 30 year fixed mortgage instead of the ARM, for example.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

If you can't get a hold of the seller, hopefully the same individual who's on the title... then I think your up "its" creek. Title = 99% ownership and bill of sale is simply proof of transaction. Was the title signed over to her? You could make a bill of sale, but legally you would need to seller to sign (along with his information).

 

[14Accent]

I forgot to mention this part... I'm very sorry to all. This makes it even worse.

She can't find the title she was given when she bought the car. Apparently it got misplaced in a move or something.

This car has, quite literally, no documents. No tags. No registration. Nothing.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Sounds like a good life lesson.... that sucks.

 

[oilpsi2high]

Originally Posted by 14Accent
I forgot to mention this part... I'm very sorry to all. This makes it even worse.

She can't find the title she was given when she bought the car. Apparently it got misplaced in a move or something.

This car has, quite literally, no documents. No tags. No registration. Nothing.


So what, you can still apply for a duplicate title. It'll be a little work but it can be done.

 

[Win]

As suggested, the usual means of dealing with this somewhat common issue is commonly known as a "bonded title". The only glitch is whether or not she can get the bonded title from AZ or TX.

Last time I got one here, the state police had to physically inspect the vehicle to verify the VIN on the vehicle. Your sister should check with the AZ tag office for their procedure.

Should not be that big a deal, really - a little extra cost and inconvenience. Unless the car comes up as stolen when they look at the VIN on the vehicle ......