Machine Shop Questions
- Thread starter The Critic
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Have them fit a new set of valve stem seals while they're at it.
And the first step is a hardness test, saves going through all that work to find it's a waste of time.
We have done lots of head gaskets and head replacements over the years (Chrysler was known for them in a couple models) and never did the rings and had no increased or new oil consumption.
It is important to clean the debris from the cylinders thoroughly when you clean up the block prior to putting the head back on though.
It is important to clean the debris from the cylinders thoroughly when you clean up the block prior to putting the head back on though.
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Originally Posted by Trav
Plastic razor blade in a scraper handle and cleaner, the only residue may be PTFE no gasket material. Do not sand or use a metal blade on the aluminum block and never use a Roloc disc it will ruin the engine bearings.
I've heard that some DIYers use a cheap, $.60 cent wall switch plate from the hardware store or a box store and use that as a metal-safe scraper. It's hard and brittle, but it can be sharpened to create a scraper that won't gouge aluminum.
Plastic razor blade in a scraper handle and cleaner, the only residue may be PTFE no gasket material. Do not sand or use a metal blade on the aluminum block and never use a Roloc disc it will ruin the engine bearings.
I've heard that some DIYers use a cheap, $.60 cent wall switch plate from the hardware store or a box store and use that as a metal-safe scraper. It's hard and brittle, but it can be sharpened to create a scraper that won't gouge aluminum.
Sure why not, great idea. These are cheap enough and get the job done.
https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Razo...s&qid=1551230169&s=hi&sr=1-5
https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Razo...s&qid=1551230169&s=hi&sr=1-5
Originally Posted by The Critic
My daily driver, the 2011 Prius, decided to blow its headgasket at 185k miles. Apparently this is a somewhat common issue on the newer Toyota 1.8s (2ZR-FE and 2ZR-FXE engines). Usually we install used engines for situations like this, but due to the oil consumption issues with this engine family, I have decided to replace the headgasket since my engine does not consume any oil.
As part of the headgasket replacement, I plan to send the head out to a machine shop for inspection, resurfacing and a valve job (if-needed). I do not have any experience with using machine shops for this type of work. My questions are:
1) What kinds of questions should I be asking to ensure that I am selecting a competent machine shop?
2) I know this will vary greatly by geographic area, but what is the typical price for a cylinder head inspection and resurfacing?
I contacted a machine shop that a friend's shop recommended. The person at the machine shop seemed to be familiar with these engines. I asked him for a typical-to-worse case scenario quote to make the head "as perfect as possible," and he told me to expect to pay something in the $3-$400 ballpark. The number did not seem outrageous to me but I am curious if that is the average rate.
Thanks.
I think I get it , as far as a head warping . Do these engines have a history of the block warping and needing to be " decked " ? Or is that even a possability ?
My daily driver, the 2011 Prius, decided to blow its headgasket at 185k miles. Apparently this is a somewhat common issue on the newer Toyota 1.8s (2ZR-FE and 2ZR-FXE engines). Usually we install used engines for situations like this, but due to the oil consumption issues with this engine family, I have decided to replace the headgasket since my engine does not consume any oil.
As part of the headgasket replacement, I plan to send the head out to a machine shop for inspection, resurfacing and a valve job (if-needed). I do not have any experience with using machine shops for this type of work. My questions are:
1) What kinds of questions should I be asking to ensure that I am selecting a competent machine shop?
2) I know this will vary greatly by geographic area, but what is the typical price for a cylinder head inspection and resurfacing?
I contacted a machine shop that a friend's shop recommended. The person at the machine shop seemed to be familiar with these engines. I asked him for a typical-to-worse case scenario quote to make the head "as perfect as possible," and he told me to expect to pay something in the $3-$400 ballpark. The number did not seem outrageous to me but I am curious if that is the average rate.
Thanks.
I think I get it , as far as a head warping . Do these engines have a history of the block warping and needing to be " decked " ? Or is that even a possability ?
On cast iron or steel , I use a sharp wood chisel as a scraper . Rightly or wrongly , I have been known to use them on aluminum . Very , very carefully !
When I replace a part , like a water pump , I use sealant between the part and gasket , so that if I ever have to replace it again , I do not have any trouble scraping the block . I resist using sealant ( no gasket ) only , as a gasket . Largely for this reason .
Far as I know , I have never blown a head gasket . Certainly never replaced one .
I have gotten the impression , on modern engines , blown HG is largely caused by running them low on coolant ? Is this what happened on your vehicle ?
When I replace a part , like a water pump , I use sealant between the part and gasket , so that if I ever have to replace it again , I do not have any trouble scraping the block . I resist using sealant ( no gasket ) only , as a gasket . Largely for this reason .
Far as I know , I have never blown a head gasket . Certainly never replaced one .
I have gotten the impression , on modern engines , blown HG is largely caused by running them low on coolant ? Is this what happened on your vehicle ?
Originally Posted by Silk
And the first step is a hardness test, saves going through all that work to find it's a waste of time.
Why would the hardness change between new and warp?
And the first step is a hardness test, saves going through all that work to find it's a waste of time.
Why would the hardness change between new and warp?
Update:
The cylinder head has been removed and was dropped off at the machine shop this morning for inspection, cleaning and new valve stem seals (supplied by me from the Toyota engine overhaul gasket kit).
It appears that the cylinder head gasket failed in the area between cylinders 1 and 2. As you can see from the photo, cylinder 2 was washed out.
Also, the bolt which came out of the hole that my finger is pointing to was looser than the other ones. Not by much, but it is coincidentally where the gasket failed.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/hvPGsfJ.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/U724Dlj.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/JCGFqC2.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/CBe7pXJ.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Note: I am aware that I lost a valve stem cap....somewhere.
The cylinder head has been removed and was dropped off at the machine shop this morning for inspection, cleaning and new valve stem seals (supplied by me from the Toyota engine overhaul gasket kit).
It appears that the cylinder head gasket failed in the area between cylinders 1 and 2. As you can see from the photo, cylinder 2 was washed out.
Also, the bolt which came out of the hole that my finger is pointing to was looser than the other ones. Not by much, but it is coincidentally where the gasket failed.
Note: I am aware that I lost a valve stem cap....somewhere.
I did a few of these jobs on mine and friends cars, back in the day. For the amount of labor involved, let the shop do whatever they think is required on the head.
The machine shop will do their job, it's up to you to do yours. You have to get that deck spotless and check it for flatness before the new gasket and head goes back on.
The machine shop will do their job, it's up to you to do yours. You have to get that deck spotless and check it for flatness before the new gasket and head goes back on.
The machine shop got my head done way ahead of schedule. He advised me that the valves sealed correctly and the guides were finel so a valve job was not needed. There was also no warpage. So, they cleaned the head, inspected, resurfaced (removed .003") and installed the new valve stem seals that I provided. The total bill was $160.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/elbPVIi.jpg "[Linked Image]")
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That is a really good price. Always nice when the machine shop part comes in under budget and ahead of schedule.
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Why would the hardness change between new and warp?
They lose hardness when they overheat, very common with Japanese cyl heads. If you don't check for hardness, the head will loosen and the headgasket fail again. First test done at the machine shop here, if it fails the hardness test, we toss the head and buy a new one.
Why would the hardness change between new and warp?
They lose hardness when they overheat, very common with Japanese cyl heads. If you don't check for hardness, the head will loosen and the headgasket fail again. First test done at the machine shop here, if it fails the hardness test, we toss the head and buy a new one.
Did it pull the threads out of the block? I assume these a TTY bold so I am a bit curious why it loosened, it seems this may have been the cause but the question is why. Stud kit, Time Serts like on the aluminum N* blocks may be the solution?
Originally Posted by Trav
Did it pull the threads out of the block? I assume these a TTY bold so I am a bit curious why it loosened, it seems this may have been the cause but the question is why. Stud kit, Time Serts like on the aluminum N* blocks may be the solution?
Toyota did have problems with the 2.4L 2AZ-FE in the 2002-2006 Camrys as well as the head gaskets in those. They had the same block thread issue as the Northstars.
They've been silent with the BHGs on the 2ZR-FXE on the Prius/CT200h and the 2ZR-FE on the Corolla/Matrix/Vibe. Toyota speculated it was the intake manifold and ECM calibration. It does, however sound like the 7M-GE/GTE Cressida/Supra I6 head gasket issues back in the 1990s when they changed the gasket and revised the head bolt torques without an clear explanation why.
Did it pull the threads out of the block? I assume these a TTY bold so I am a bit curious why it loosened, it seems this may have been the cause but the question is why. Stud kit, Time Serts like on the aluminum N* blocks may be the solution?
Toyota did have problems with the 2.4L 2AZ-FE in the 2002-2006 Camrys as well as the head gaskets in those. They had the same block thread issue as the Northstars.
They've been silent with the BHGs on the 2ZR-FXE on the Prius/CT200h and the 2ZR-FE on the Corolla/Matrix/Vibe. Toyota speculated it was the intake manifold and ECM calibration. It does, however sound like the 7M-GE/GTE Cressida/Supra I6 head gasket issues back in the 1990s when they changed the gasket and revised the head bolt torques without an clear explanation why.
Interesting. Without looking further into it it sounds like a full Time Sert job may be way to go while its all apart. He said the head was not warped so something is definitely wrong, TTY bolts don't loosen even slightly for no reason.
No surprise they are silent, if its a small number why start a campaign and damage the name.
No surprise they are silent, if its a small number why start a campaign and damage the name.
Originally Posted by Trav
Interesting. Without looking further into it it sounds like a full Time Sert job may be way to go while its all apart. He said the head was not warped so something is definitely wrong, TTY bolts don't loosen even slightly for no reason.
No surprise they are silent, if its a small number why start a campaign and damage the name.
Yeah, I am definitely a bit puzzled about this. I talked with someone who has done a lot of headgaskets on this platform and he told me that it is not uncommon for that particular head bolt to be a bit loose.
The new bolts went on fine (36 ft lbs + 90 deg + 45 deg) but as you mentioned, I wonder if there is a deficiency with the threads for that particular bolt.
The job is finished (I'll probably post a separate thread with all of the info) and the car runs fine now (no misfires). Now we will have to wait and see if the increased compression causes any bottom-end issues to develop.
Interesting. Without looking further into it it sounds like a full Time Sert job may be way to go while its all apart. He said the head was not warped so something is definitely wrong, TTY bolts don't loosen even slightly for no reason.
No surprise they are silent, if its a small number why start a campaign and damage the name.
Yeah, I am definitely a bit puzzled about this. I talked with someone who has done a lot of headgaskets on this platform and he told me that it is not uncommon for that particular head bolt to be a bit loose.
The new bolts went on fine (36 ft lbs + 90 deg + 45 deg) but as you mentioned, I wonder if there is a deficiency with the threads for that particular bolt.
The job is finished (I'll probably post a separate thread with all of the info) and the car runs fine now (no misfires). Now we will have to wait and see if the increased compression causes any bottom-end issues to develop.
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