M1 SUV + Moly

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Take the below for what you want, I am not making these statements, I am merely passing on what I was told.... I've been wondering whether its safe to mix M1 SUV or Delvac 1 containing no moly with oils or additives that contain moly, lots of people do this, such as delvac 1 + redline brews, but i was wondering if there was a reason why mobil did not put moly in their delvac/suv oil. I spoke to one of their technical engineers and was told that it is totally safe to mix Moly with the oil, that they do not use it because of a different formulation that makes it not necessary. He would not tell me what this different formulation was, I asked him if the SUV/Delvac 1 oils have more Esters than SS, but he said he cannot release this information, and when asked if Delvac 1 and SUV are the same oil he said that they are very similar in their composition. I hate these people, why cant they just tell us everything in the oil, like a food label you know!
 

MolaKule

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quote:
He would not tell me what this different formulation was, I asked him if the SUV/Delvac 1 oils have more Esters than SS, but he said he cannot release this information, and when asked if Delvac 1 and SUV are the same oil he said that they are very similar in their composition.
It's called capitalism, proprietary data, etc. Why should I, who has spent years developing formulas, risking my my own money, release to someone all my secrets when they haven't worked for it nor paid me for the information. It's called, "Protection of Intellectual Data." It is ok to use soluble moly in Delvac 1 or SUV to increase the friction modification. [ May 20, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
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[Off Topic!]
quote:
I hate these people, why cant they just tell us everything in the oil, like a food label you know!
[Off Topic!] You hate someone for this? Wow. I'll try staying on your good side...... Seriously. Mola is correct. As usual.
 
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quote:
It is ok to use soluble moly in Delvac 1 or SUV to increase the friction modification.
Funny, last time I sugested adding moly to M1 T&S I was labeled a moron based on the suggestion of adding anything to any oil. I don't remember who said what, but it got kinda ugly. [Razz] So what would be a good soluble moly additive, and how much should one use, if one, despite not having the proper training, credentials, or certifciates, were inclined to do so in the most frivolous way?
 

MolaKule

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Thanks Pablo. Not to belabor the point, but unless you're a chemist or proces engineer, what good would all this data do for You? One of things we try to do on BITOG is to educate people on base oils and additives and attempt to cut through the hype, but people shouldn't expect companies to relase sensitive and competitive information.
 

MolaKule

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Mori, As inferred by the original poster, something like Redline of close or same viscosity could be added or mixed to instill moly into a non-moly oil such as Delvac 1 or T&SUV. For example, if Redline 10W30 has approx. 600 ppm of moly/qt, then mixing this one quart to about 4 more quarts of your favorite (non-moly) oil should yield about 125 ppm of moly in the total mix. This amount of moly should be sufficient for additional friction modification in a daily driver. With the amount of esters and DD's in Delvac 1 or T&SUV, you already have some measure of Friction Modification. The idea I have attempted to convey many times is this: Make up your brew and send it to Terry Dyson before you put anything in an engine, so that you and he can both confer on the applicability of this (the) mix with your particular engine and driving habits. [ May 20, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by moribundman: [QUOTE] So what would be a good soluble moly additive, and how much should one use, if one, despite not having the proper training, credentials, or certifciates, were inclined to do so in the most frivolous way?
That Torco additive would be a start for a synlube and is in dang near concentrate form but it would be trial and error to figure out how much to start with . It sticks to the inside of a clear plastic bottle even though it's very, very thin so it wuld be difficult at best to exact the amount mixed into an oil and sent to a lab for a baseline. Whats a few hundred PPM anyway [Smile] Five eye droppers directly into the warm engine then start and run it I supppose
 

MolaKule

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quote:
That Torco additive would be a start for a synlube and is in dang near concentrate form but it would be trial and error to figure out how much to start with .
Again, the guesswork can be taken out if the supplement is sent to a lab in virgin form. One could then make an estimate of how much, say of Torco or whatever should be added. This is where someone like Terry could help. I prefer not to fly blind. [ May 20, 2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 

cweed

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I think I misexpressed myself there, i totally didnt expect Mobil to release their formula for the oil, no decent company would do so, and of course im not mad at them or really hate them for this either. I was just making a joke as so many of us here would love to know some of the ingredients behind the oils we love to use, especially in a little food-type label on the back hehe, GC is one of these, i bet you the many people that use it on here would love to know exactly why it is working so well for them. But of course Castrol is not going to tell them or anyone else for that matter because with enough $$ that someone could copy their good formula. [Cheers!] My post and my call to Mobil came from a thread where someone mentioned that it is bad to mix M1 SS and M1 SUV/Delvac 1. I actually mixed the two oils at my last oil change and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement, getting no responses here or anywhere on the web I decided to give Mobil a try [I dont know] [ May 20, 2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: cweed ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by cweed: My post and my call to Mobil came from a thread where someone mentioned that it is bad to mix M1 SS and M1 SUV/Delvac 1. I actually mixed the two oils at my last oil change and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement, getting no responses here or anywhere on the web I decided to give Mobil a try [I dont know]
I would be wary of mixing some synthetics because of the engine seals .This is a new age for those synlubes and the formulas vary greatly as does how they mediate seal swell or shrinkage . Now that is time after time I'm speaking of but someone might get lucky you never now . I'd also be wary because I saw the results of mixing Amsoil w/ Redline . Although as I remember the wear was ok the TBN was shot with hardly any miles or time on the interval over in the analysis section . For the most part I think mixing is a waste of oil in an effort to improve on either chosen oil . Now adding that Torco moly might be a different deal if not over done in the amount used to a molyless oil [Wink] I don't think i'd add it to an oil already with moly . [ May 20, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
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I think you guys are getting confused with the element Molybdenum and the compound molybdenum disulfide MoS2). You wouldn't add MoS2 to an engine oil, it can agglomerate and block oilways and would be removed by filtration. However the element molybdenum is increasingly being found in an engine oil formulation, it is the base of an alternative anti-wear or anti-oxidant to replace zinc dithiophosphate. Oil formulators need to use more anti-wear because of higher and higher engine loadings, especially cam loadings, in modern engines. However they can't just add more and more of the old standard anti-wear additive, zinc dithiophosphate, because modern engines are attached to catalysts and the phosphorus poisons the cat. there's a limit to the amount of phosphorus an PCMO can have in it, I think its about 13/100ths of a percent mass. I can remember once that the company I worked for had a PCMO which had a copper based anti-oxidant in it. That sure caused a few problems with the independant used oil analysis labs when someone sent in a used sample. Mind, I never had much respect for some of the independant used oil analysis labs. I had one that recommended that a customer of mine drain over 1000 litres (250 plus US gallons) of medium speed engine oil because of the silicon level. They forgot that silicone anti-foamant will show a presence of the element silicon in an UOA. But back to the original subject, its perfectly OK to mix PCMOs containing moly with those which contain no moly. No engine manufacturer can afford to produce an engine oil which isn't compatible with other engine oils on the market - in fact it'd be hard to make an engine oil which does its job which was incompatible with other engine oils.
 
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I personally believe in what Tooslick says on occasion and that is "Dont' try and play organic chemist". However, most all synthetics are compatible with one another so it won't hurt. But trying to creat a superior oil on your own is a bit extreme IMO. M1 SUV doesn't need Moly, nor does Amsoil. Certain oils use other additives that take Moly's place and like Molekule has said before, it's not the panacea. Redline uses tons of Moly, in my opinion, bc their oils are engineered more for performance and people that are going to really drive the **** out of their cars. Many different approaches to formulation as we see here all the time. [Smile] [ May 20, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
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Steve S wrote:
quote:
I think you guys are getting confused with the element Molybdenum and the compound molybdenum disulfide MoS2).
Eh, I thought we were talking about soluble moly to begin with and not about MoS2? [Wink]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by moribundman: Steve S wrote:
quote:
I think you guys are getting confused with the element Molybdenum and the compound molybdenum disulfide MoS2).
Eh, I thought we were talking about soluble moly to begin with and not about MoS2? [Wink]

Yes we were and the Torco is just that . Oils might be compatible , well obviously so because of residual when changing brands but mixing them there are too many variables for me to use in an engine I care about . Just for instance the different Paratones's Chevron uses , the three different Shelvis VII's much less additives and basestock differences . It's a crap shoot Don't take my word though ...that Amsoil/Redline analysis speaks for it's self [Smile] [ May 20, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
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While I would not expect the formula the ingredients should be listed on the label. If you not a chemist or process engineer you are not going to be able to whip up a batch of Delvac in your bath tub anyways. If I am a chemist or process engineer or competition for a large oil refinerys their is a strong chance I have the resources to find out exactly what is in the product and would not bother asking. The only thing that deceptive "It's Classified " proprietary blah,blah, blah does is keep the consumer from makeing an informed decision. Case in point! I know the exact chemical make up of a twinkie yet I am not churning out twinkies in my kitchen!!! Notice that the back of the twinkie carton does not give away any process, control procedures, reactive information or other instructions on how to properly copy a twinky in you kitchen! I know Molakule you are not trying to tell me that Castrol would be unable to come up with a reasonable knock off of Delvac-1 just becasue they will not tell John Browning how it differes from SUV or their base stock make up (roughly not exact percentages mind you).
 
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quote:
Case in point! I know the exact chemical make up of a twinkie yet I am not churning out twinkies in my kitchen!!!
And we're all thankful for that. [Razz]
 
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MoS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment: Although this "Moly" additive may be used in new or old engines, maximum benefits are realized by using it right from the start in new engines.(!!!???) It produces a gentle bedding with excellent surface quality so that the engine is given a good start for a long and healthy life. All frictional surfaces are covered with a fine but extremely strong film which has been scientifically proven to reduce engine wear by an average of 50%. In most cases, mileage improvement occurs along with reduced oil consumption, especially in 2.8 V6 models. Although you could use it in place of motor oil, you will save money and obtain the promised results by adding it to any good oil, conventional or synthetic, at every oil change. $6.45 ea. or $5.95 when ordering 6 http://www.audiquattroparts.com/fluids.htm
 
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About the LM MoS2: the question is whether LM really contains MoS2, or if it's a soluble moly. Fact is, many people know what MoS2 is, but they don't know soluble moly. The name of the product may imply that it contains MoS2, LM may even say it contains MoS2, but LM being who they are, which is a respected company, I doubt they'd use MoS2. The LM additive is very popular with many mechanics. This is by the way the moly additive I brought up on the additive forum once. I was shot down quickly for messing with my oil. [Razz] PS: Sorry for that atrocious run-on sentence up there. [Wink]
 
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