M1 0W-40 FS SP 4k mi; BMW 2011 328I 240k mi

[OVERKILL]

Same oil used 3x from 11/22 to 05/23. Same oil used 2x from 09/24 to 11/24.

02/24/20: Castrol Edge Euro 0W40 6ppm Fe 5100mi 1.2ppm/1000mi

11/21/22: QSFS 5W30 5ppm Fe 5400mi 0.9ppm/1000mi
02/05/23: QSFS 5W30 5ppm Fe 5000mi 1.0ppm/1000mi
05/01/23: QSFS 5W30 6ppm Fe 5000mi 1.2ppm/1000mi

12/01/23: QS Euro 5W40 12ppm Fe 4900mi 2.4ppm/1000mi

09/16/24: M1 Euro 0W40 21ppm Fe 6100mi 3.4ppm/1000mi
11/28/24: M1Euro 0W40 14ppm Fe 4000mi 3.5ppm/1000mi

You could say the doubling of the wear rate at 12/01/23 could be related to changing oils. But a case could also be made that the Fe wear rate is increasing consistently with each UOA over the past 2 years. I don't think it's clear either way. If OP stays with M1 0W40 for another few OCIs and the wear rate continues to climb consistently, then it's not the oil. If it stays around 3.5ppm/1000mi or drops back to 1-2ppm per 1000mi, then it was the oil.

If we assume for a moment that the wear rate is increasing, and has been since the beginning, then we have to consider the role of using a non-approved oil with considerably less phosphorous than spec'd may have contributed to that IMHO.

On the other hand, per @Jetronic's point, we could be seeing an artifact of less actual wear, as the particles shed skew smaller with the increase in AW additives, increasing their visibility to ICP.

This highlights one of the numerous limitations of UOA's, which I touched-on in my earlier reply. You really are "flying blind" on particles much above 5 microns, which limits the legitimacy, and utility, of inferences being drawn from the results. It's why UOA's on engines experiencing catastrophic failure can look quite good; great in fact, because the material being sent into the oil is well outside the range visible by ICP. Trying to choose the "best oil" by UOA is like trying to choose the best meds by sampling the waste stream coming out of a seniors home. You can't see where anything is coming from and you are blind to the larger particles; you can't see who is going out the morgue.

 

[edyvw]

Same oil used 3x from 11/22 to 05/23. Same oil used 2x from 09/24 to 11/24.

02/24/20: Castrol Edge Euro 0W40 6ppm Fe 5100mi 1.2ppm/1000mi

11/21/22: QSFS 5W30 5ppm Fe 5400mi 0.9ppm/1000mi
02/05/23: QSFS 5W30 5ppm Fe 5000mi 1.0ppm/1000mi
05/01/23: QSFS 5W30 6ppm Fe 5000mi 1.2ppm/1000mi

12/01/23: QS Euro 5W40 12ppm Fe 4900mi 2.4ppm/1000mi

09/16/24: M1 Euro 0W40 21ppm Fe 6100mi 3.4ppm/1000mi
11/28/24: M1Euro 0W40 14ppm Fe 4000mi 3.5ppm/1000mi

You could say the doubling of the wear rate at 12/01/23 could be related to changing oils. But a case could also be made that the Fe wear rate is increasing consistently with each UOA over the past 2 years. I don't think it's clear either way. If OP stays with M1 0W40 for another few OCIs and the wear rate continues to climb consistently, then it's not the oil. If it stays around 3.5ppm/1000mi or drops back to 1-2ppm per 1000mi, then it was the oil.

Again, and I don't know how many times this has to be mentioned, this is not used in engine analysis unless there is a tremendous jump in wear (let's say 40ppm).
Lighter oils might have an advantage in really cold weather, short trips, etc. That is why it is imperative to have a controlled environment if we are talking 1-3 or 5ppm wear. That is why this cannot be pointed to oil. I agree with @OVERKILL here that ILSAC oil might did damage (if there is any) and now we see slow deterioration. MAYBE (this is just to play this game).
And as I said immediately, he has to stick to one oil and do 4-5 UOA. IMO, in his case, it is a waste of money, as I don't think anything is going on with the engine, but whatever.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Thank you all for the responses. I will update when I have something new to report.

 

[Brons2]

It seemed to like the thinner oil better, the oils used in the OCIs that had single digit iron wear were all in the 9s in the viscosity column.

That said, this engine has 240K miles on it and the wear numbers don't seem that bad with the possible exception of the single UOA where iron was in the low 20s.

 

[KEVINK0000]

New report and 2a7a fault. Will add to this later.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Went back to the QSFS 5W30 ILSAC oil that was in use before I switched to Euro oils. Obviously, more going on now with engine than before. And I have a Vanos fault, 2A7A, and a few weeks before that a SES light came up for cyl#3 misfire while engine was normal temp and running. That has not come back. This car needs a fair amount of work now, so I am going to take a look-see under the valve cover while its out of service soon for new driveshaft, shocks, LCAs, front rotors, oil pan gasket, etc.
BMW says I don't have broken Vanos bolts based on my VIN, but I am going to replace them while I am in there, if I have the bolted Vanos. No abnormal noises cold or hot so far.

I suspect I will find some valvetrain issue pretty quickly.

I am about ready to drain a 5k run on this oil, and will post that when I get it.

 

[levesqu6]

hows the oil consumption on the M1 0-40 FS Euro SP vs QS Euro 5w-40? I had been running castrol 5w40 in my n52 and n63tu and did m1 0w40 this last round. the oil consumption in both cars has been much higher.

 

[KEVINK0000]

It’s funny you revived this thread, I just got a new report to post that is, uh, interesting. Will do so soon. Did not notice any difference between the original 0w40 Castrol and the 5w40 QS. The M1 0w40 did get consumed slightly more. The 5w30 consumption is higher. A 5k run will put the level indicator halfway down with the 40w , and 3/4 down with the 30w. . Same consumption each time, within a small tolerance window.

 

[vinu_neuro]

Why are you using ilsac oil in an engine spec'd for ll-04

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Why are you using ilsac oil in an engine spec'd for ll-04

The N20 is also spec'd for LL01fe (I don't remember what the LL04 version is. Maybe LL12fe?). BMW was also recommending a 20 grade (A5/B5) when they were selling this engine.

BMW never officially recommended LL04 for this engine in the US because we weren't on ULSG and BMW was more interested in CAFE which required a sub 3.5cP HTHS 30 grade or 20 grade.

 

[vinu_neuro]

I meant to write LL-01 (I don't think LL-01 FE was introduced until 2014/2015). Regardless, seems strange for the OP to be fretting over M1/QS euro oil quality when he's been willing to use ILSAC oil in his BMW requiring LL-01/A3/B4 base specification.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I meant to write LL-01 (I don't think LL-01 FE was introduced until 2014/2015). Regardless, seems strange for the OP to be fretting over M1/QS euro oil quality when he's been willing to use ILSAC oil in his BMW requiring LL-01/A3/B4 base specification.

LL01FE was available in Europe over 15 yrs ago, but like I said LL01fe was the official viscosity for the N20 in the US. LL01fe is essentially a ILSAC oil anyways because the the is around 3.2cP.

 

[OVERKILL]

LL01FE was available in Europe over 15 yrs ago, but like I said LL01fe was the official viscosity for the N20 in the US. LL01fe is essentially a ILSAC oil anyways because the the is around 3.2cP.

The Motul "SPECIFIC" 5W-30 LL-01FE oil has an HTHS of 3.4cP and no API approval, just ACEA A5/B5, which doesn't restrict phosphorous. So, like with LL-01, you may be getting considerably more AW chemistry with LL-01FE than with an ILSAC oil.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The Motul "SPECIFIC" 5W-30 LL-01FE oil has an HTHS of 3.4cP and no API approval, just ACEA A5/B5, which doesn't restrict phosphorous. So, like with LL-01, you may be getting considerably more AW chemistry with LL-01FE than with an ILSAC oil.

Absolutely.

Thankfully the US has been on ULSG for awhile now so the AW chemistry may or may not been that relevant.

 

[OVERKILL]

Absolutely.

Thankfully the US has been on ULSG for awhile now so the AW chemistry may or may not been that relevant.

I just tend to think of terms of ZDDP levels, since BMW likes to use sliding followers. I prefer the full-SAPS level, which is, as you know, a fair bit higher than the ILSAC level, which tends to hover around 700-800ppm of phosphorous. This is one of the reasons I'd never use an ILSAC oil in a Euro app that calls for a full-SAPS lube.

 

[Hohn]

If you look through the UOAs of the M1 0W40, you will see that almost every one of them sheared very slightly out of grade. Since it starts at 12.5, getting below 12 doesn’t take much.

There is not a huge difference, in fact there’s really no difference, between 12.5, where Mobil says it starts, and 11.7 where it was tested in your UOA.

I don’t think you have a problem with your oil, or your engine.

It's important to remember that 0w-40 FS is barely a 40 grade. It' right on the bubble, so if it shears even a tiny bit, or gets diluted a tiny bit, it's toast as far as staying a 40 grade.

 

[levesqu6]

It’s funny you revived this thread, I just got a new report to post that is, uh, interesting. Will do so soon. Did not notice any difference between the original 0w40 Castrol and the 5w40 QS. The M1 0w40 did get consumed slightly more. The 5w30 consumption is higher. A 5k run will put the level indicator halfway down with the 40w , and 3/4 down with the 30w. . Same consumption each time, within a small tolerance window.

your n52 consumes less than my 2006. They did revise the valve cover and pcv system for 2007 so maybe that is why. The car seems to more or less consume the same amount of oil at 220k as it did when i got it at 100k. Which is around 1 quart every 3k. Ive been running 10k oil changes on this car the entire time ive had it. It was a lease car originally so it probably had some super long ones at the beginning of its life.

I've never done a UOA on this car so its interesting to read about you having some issues at smaller intervals. How do you drive your car? My commute has mostly been 25miles each way on the freeway. Regular runs to red line.

 

[KEVINK0000]

your n52 consumes less than my 2006. They did revise the valve cover and pcv system for 2007 so maybe that is why. The car seems to more or less consume the same amount of oil at 220k as it did when i got it at 100k. Which is around 1 quart every 3k. Ive been running 10k oil changes on this car the entire time ive had it. It was a lease car originally so it probably had some super long ones at the beginning of its life.

I've never done a UOA on this car so its interesting to read about you having some issues at smaller intervals. How do you drive your car? My commute has mostly been 25miles each way on the freeway. Regular runs to red line.

Your valve train looks a lot cleaner than mine. I’m sure mine was a lease car, with 15 or 16k dealer changes. I always get carbon in the filter pleats each change, and have for the 150k we have owned it. This is my wife’s car, she has a lead foot, and it gets run a couple times a week 60 miles each way at over 3000 rpm, with some redline or close to redline pulls along the way. GM 6 speed automatic.

 

[KEVINK0000]

I just tend to think of terms of ZDDP levels, since BMW likes to use sliding followers. I prefer the full-SAPS level, which is, as you know, a fair bit higher than the ILSAC level, which tends to hover around 700-800ppm of phosphorous. This is one of the reasons I'd never use an ILSAC oil in a Euro app that calls for a full-SAPS lube.

I don’t agree, with 4v heads cam loading is not an issue in my opinion. A 2V, I would agree but would run something like VR1 in that. Long drains, yes-Euro all the way. I don’t like long drains and don’t do them. Now, ILSAC is not as far apart from current Euro as it once was. In some ways I think it’s better in fact- Nomex on.

 

[OVERKILL]

I don’t agree, with 4v heads cam loading is not an issue in my opinion. Long drains, yes Euro all the way. I don’t like long drains and don’t do them. Now, ILSAC is not as far apart from current Euro as it once was. In some ways I think it’s better in fact- Nomex on.

You can blend an ILSAC/API SP lube with Group II, which you can't do with a Euro oil. While the SP update did bring them a bit closer, the API testing is a much lower bar than the resultant cumulative OEM testing you get with a Euro lube (though dexos helps).

Spring pressure and contact patch both play a role in AW chemistry requirements. If an engine is designed and tested with a full-SAPS lube in mind and somebody uses some uber-neutered 680ppm ILSAC oil in it, it's certainly possible for damage to be the result.

Cam-over-bucket is certainly not without examples of failure (VW/Audi), or roller and sliding solid followers for that matter (Honda, I'm looking at you).

Now, that said, this is ultimately your vehicle and if you want to run mayonnaise in it, who am I to tell you otherwise? I'm simply stating I would never do this and explained why. I also wouldn't go bungee jumping, skydiving or partake in other activities that I deem needlessly high risk, like running 0W-8 in an engine not designed for it or running 87 octane in an engine that calls for 91.