Lubro-Moly Mos2 Antifriction Treatment
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Originally Posted By: toyota62
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2008/session10/deer08_adhvaryu.pdf
Wow! All else being equal, a healthy dose of MoS2 and ZDDP really makes a difference. As oil makers reduce phosphorus, sulfur, and other additives, we have to look at the alternatives. Basestocks will get better, but for decades now they are primarily used to deliver the additives.
The slideshow also mentioned fullerene -- topic for another thread, I suppose?
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2008/session10/deer08_adhvaryu.pdf
Wow! All else being equal, a healthy dose of MoS2 and ZDDP really makes a difference. As oil makers reduce phosphorus, sulfur, and other additives, we have to look at the alternatives. Basestocks will get better, but for decades now they are primarily used to deliver the additives.
The slideshow also mentioned fullerene -- topic for another thread, I suppose?
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
If my math is correct, 1 teaspoon of pure MoS2 in 5 quarts of oil would be a boost of 1042ppm.
4 quarts would be 1302ppm
6 quarts would be 868ppm
That's a lot of moly. If I were willing to try it, I'd do at most 1/4 teaspoon for a 5 quart sump, which would be a boost of about 260ppm.
I ran the numbers today, my math sucks so go easy on me, but I think 1 teaspoon per qt of oil raises moly to about 950 ppm?
If my math is correct, 1 teaspoon of pure MoS2 in 5 quarts of oil would be a boost of 1042ppm.
4 quarts would be 1302ppm
6 quarts would be 868ppm
That's a lot of moly. If I were willing to try it, I'd do at most 1/4 teaspoon for a 5 quart sump, which would be a boost of about 260ppm.
I ran the numbers today, my math sucks so go easy on me, but I think 1 teaspoon per qt of oil raises moly to about 950 ppm?
There are 192 teaspoons in a quart, so a teaspoon of moly in a quart should be over 5200ppm (1,000,000 divided by 192). This is just simple math based on volume, so it won't be exact when the oil is actually tested. The actual PPM will probably be lower, unless you pack the moly into the teaspoon to remove any air.
Originally Posted By: toyota62
Redline says they use different type of moly not Mos2.
Which would explain why the oil doesn't have a silver color to it?
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
There are 192 teaspoons in a quart, so a teaspoon of moly in a quart should be over 5200ppm (1,000,000 divided by 192). This is just simple math based on volume, so it won't be exact when the oil is actually tested. The actual PPM will probably be lower, unless you pack the moly into the teaspoon to remove any air.
Thanks chevrofreak!
Redline says they use different type of moly not Mos2.
Which would explain why the oil doesn't have a silver color to it?
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
There are 192 teaspoons in a quart, so a teaspoon of moly in a quart should be over 5200ppm (1,000,000 divided by 192). This is just simple math based on volume, so it won't be exact when the oil is actually tested. The actual PPM will probably be lower, unless you pack the moly into the teaspoon to remove any air.
Thanks chevrofreak!
So, wait.... For a 4-quart sump like the one in my cavalier, how much of this should I add? I saw some at NAPA the other day, I might pick some up when I change to PP 5W-30 about the end of october.
Originally Posted By: rudolphna
So, wait.... For a 4-quart sump like the one in my cavalier, how much of this should I add? I saw some at NAPA the other day, I might pick some up when I change to PP 5W-30 about the end of october.
Half of a 300 ml container ought to be enough for a 4-quart capacity sump.
So, wait.... For a 4-quart sump like the one in my cavalier, how much of this should I add? I saw some at NAPA the other day, I might pick some up when I change to PP 5W-30 about the end of october.
Half of a 300 ml container ought to be enough for a 4-quart capacity sump.
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: rudolphna
So, wait.... For a 4-quart sump like the one in my cavalier, how much of this should I add? I saw some at NAPA the other day, I might pick some up when I change to PP 5W-30 about the end of october.
Half of a 300 ml container ought to be enough for a 4-quart capacity sump.
The German Manufacturer of Lubri Moly says it is colloidal MOS2 (molybdenum disulfide) suspension in mineral oil and the majority of it is
The recommended dosage for an automobile engine is 5% or 50ml per liter of oil. There is a caution on their PDF as follows:
The maximum dosage for motorcycles with a wet clutch is 2% or 20ml per liter of oil.
IMHO these amounts are rather high. I would try one-fourth to one-half of the recommended dosage and if the oil in a wet clutch motorcycle is known to already have moly in it from VOA's or UOA's, I would be inclined to leave well enough alone.
Originally Posted By: rudolphna
So, wait.... For a 4-quart sump like the one in my cavalier, how much of this should I add? I saw some at NAPA the other day, I might pick some up when I change to PP 5W-30 about the end of october.
Half of a 300 ml container ought to be enough for a 4-quart capacity sump.
The German Manufacturer of Lubri Moly says it is colloidal MOS2 (molybdenum disulfide) suspension in mineral oil and the majority of it is
The recommended dosage for an automobile engine is 5% or 50ml per liter of oil. There is a caution on their PDF as follows:
The maximum dosage for motorcycles with a wet clutch is 2% or 20ml per liter of oil.
IMHO these amounts are rather high. I would try one-fourth to one-half of the recommended dosage and if the oil in a wet clutch motorcycle is known to already have moly in it from VOA's or UOA's, I would be inclined to leave well enough alone.
The information at Fuchs-Lubritech.com (link 4th reply above) indicated that for most engines, a 2% application would be sufficient to benefit the engine with lowered internal friction. A 2% per liter application would be just 20ml per liter of oil and your Cavalier has 4 quarts so it would be a little less than 80ml to add.
For the Cavalier's entire 4 quart sump, 75ml TOTAL should be plenty. If you are using an "Energy Conserving" 5W-30 oil there will already be some Moly compound in the oil, just not the "colloidal solids" type. The colloidal solid MoS2 will stick with decent force to bare metal such as that found on cylinder walls, camshaft lobes and on the upper side of crank journal bearings where the oil gets squeezed out on the power stroke. If you use the small 75ml amount you will have enough Moly to refresh for four oil changes. Not bad for $6 and change.
When the Moly is first introduced, its affinity for bare metal will pull some of the "solids" out of suspension and put them where they will do the most good. Those particles will not leave the engine when you change the oil and, if doing UOA's, you should see gradually increasing moly ppm's as more and more is left in suspension because all the bare metal spots have been microscopically covered with MoS2.
The actual MoS2 product's metal container recommends 5% or 50ml per liter of oil which is rather high in my view in light of the densely packed 4365ppm found in the VOA and that most PCMO's use lubricants with some Moly already in them. I side with Fuchs-Lubritech's comment that for most applications, 2% per volume of oil would be plenty.
Another interesting point is what the actual product says on the can, word-for-word with punctuation: "Not suitable for use on motorbikes with wet clutches!" This is different than what appears on the pdf file at the German Company's website.
This confirms what I expected about using the pdf recommended 2% in a wet clutch motorcycle: that it is way too much and the amount should be (1/2% or 5ml/liter) severely reduced.
There is a distinct advantage to having colloidal MoS2 in a transmission, particularly with straight cut gears. For one thing, the MoS2 molecules will NOT shear and the transmission may chop up the MoS2 chunks up to even smaller sizes than .3uM. The MoS2 would reduce transmission wear rather dramatically, and it may help reduce the shearing of oil VII to a more acceptable level. Is it any surprise that some racing oils carry large loads of Moly in their additive package?
Reduced engine friction and wear is a significant advantage. You would think every motorcycle manufacturer would be making changes in materials and plate pressures on wet clutches or a change to a dry clutch to accommodate the obvious advantages in wear, power, and fuel consumption. Both the engine and the transmission can benefit from the use of inexpensive friction modifiers.
No wonder the JASO and wet-clutch thing strikes so many of us as a ruse to generate anxiety and raise prices for motorcycle oil products.
For the Cavalier's entire 4 quart sump, 75ml TOTAL should be plenty. If you are using an "Energy Conserving" 5W-30 oil there will already be some Moly compound in the oil, just not the "colloidal solids" type. The colloidal solid MoS2 will stick with decent force to bare metal such as that found on cylinder walls, camshaft lobes and on the upper side of crank journal bearings where the oil gets squeezed out on the power stroke. If you use the small 75ml amount you will have enough Moly to refresh for four oil changes. Not bad for $6 and change.
When the Moly is first introduced, its affinity for bare metal will pull some of the "solids" out of suspension and put them where they will do the most good. Those particles will not leave the engine when you change the oil and, if doing UOA's, you should see gradually increasing moly ppm's as more and more is left in suspension because all the bare metal spots have been microscopically covered with MoS2.
The actual MoS2 product's metal container recommends 5% or 50ml per liter of oil which is rather high in my view in light of the densely packed 4365ppm found in the VOA and that most PCMO's use lubricants with some Moly already in them. I side with Fuchs-Lubritech's comment that for most applications, 2% per volume of oil would be plenty.
Another interesting point is what the actual product says on the can, word-for-word with punctuation: "Not suitable for use on motorbikes with wet clutches!" This is different than what appears on the pdf file at the German Company's website.
This confirms what I expected about using the pdf recommended 2% in a wet clutch motorcycle: that it is way too much and the amount should be (1/2% or 5ml/liter) severely reduced.
There is a distinct advantage to having colloidal MoS2 in a transmission, particularly with straight cut gears. For one thing, the MoS2 molecules will NOT shear and the transmission may chop up the MoS2 chunks up to even smaller sizes than .3uM. The MoS2 would reduce transmission wear rather dramatically, and it may help reduce the shearing of oil VII to a more acceptable level. Is it any surprise that some racing oils carry large loads of Moly in their additive package?
Reduced engine friction and wear is a significant advantage. You would think every motorcycle manufacturer would be making changes in materials and plate pressures on wet clutches or a change to a dry clutch to accommodate the obvious advantages in wear, power, and fuel consumption. Both the engine and the transmission can benefit from the use of inexpensive friction modifiers.
No wonder the JASO and wet-clutch thing strikes so many of us as a ruse to generate anxiety and raise prices for motorcycle oil products.
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FWIW, my local NAPA just sold me a 300ml can of this stuff for only $4.63...part#AIC-LM2009.
Would adding 1 300ml can to a 5 and 6 qt sump be too much or just about right??
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
Originally Posted By: daman
Would adding 1 300ml can to a 5 and 6 qt sump be too much or just about right??
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
It absolutely can be used in diesel engines. As for how much... I think 150 ml would be adequate. If you go ahead and pour in the whole can, then I think you can get away with only adding every other oil change -- there would be some residual amount sticking to the internal parts after the oil drain. It would be better to add 1/2 can to every oil change instead, I think.
I bought several cans for around $4.25 each from NAPA (special order). I thought it would be more costly.
Would adding 1 300ml can to a 5 and 6 qt sump be too much or just about right??
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
It absolutely can be used in diesel engines. As for how much... I think 150 ml would be adequate. If you go ahead and pour in the whole can, then I think you can get away with only adding every other oil change -- there would be some residual amount sticking to the internal parts after the oil drain. It would be better to add 1/2 can to every oil change instead, I think.
I bought several cans for around $4.25 each from NAPA (special order). I thought it would be more costly.
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: daman
Would adding 1 300ml can to a 5 and 6 qt sump be too much or just about right??
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
It absolutely can be used in diesel engines. As for how much... I think 150 ml would be adequate. If you go ahead and pour in the whole can, then I think you can get away with only adding every other oil change -- there would be some residual amount sticking to the internal parts after the oil drain. It would be better to add 1/2 can to every oil change instead, I think.
I bought several cans for around $4.25 each from NAPA (special order). I thought it would be more costly.
thanks Red, yea thats where i got mine the other day 3 cans for $4.30 ea. NAPA,what do you think about adding a whole can to a 5-6qt sump about right to start off virgin??
for the tractor that takes 7 qts so i know 1 can would be fine for that???
Originally Posted By: daman
Would adding 1 300ml can to a 5 and 6 qt sump be too much or just about right??
also can this be used in diesel engines??(ford tractor 3 cyl)
It absolutely can be used in diesel engines. As for how much... I think 150 ml would be adequate. If you go ahead and pour in the whole can, then I think you can get away with only adding every other oil change -- there would be some residual amount sticking to the internal parts after the oil drain. It would be better to add 1/2 can to every oil change instead, I think.
I bought several cans for around $4.25 each from NAPA (special order). I thought it would be more costly.
thanks Red, yea thats where i got mine the other day 3 cans for $4.30 ea. NAPA,what do you think about adding a whole can to a 5-6qt sump about right to start off virgin??
for the tractor that takes 7 qts so i know 1 can would be fine for that???
I contacted the company, and they suggested adding the 300 Ml container every other OCI. It is not needed everytime you change the oil. It does do some plating of the engine internals so it stays around a while.
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