LSPI engine damage

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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am a big Redline fan, but I think most, if not all, have massive calcium packs.

Is their moly content helpful in this regard, though?


If Redline is high in ZDDP as my memory indicates, that would probably be even more effective than the moly in quenching LSPI despite the high calcium. Being ester based might help even more based upon Infineum's findings with an Ignition Quality Tester (not a full engine).
I guess the only way to know is to actually test, but I doubt Redline is too interested in running dexos1 Gen 2 or GF6/SN+ LSPI tests. Maybe they'll surprise me...
 
This is correct - I have "Mini-LSPI" events happen in my non-turbo Sonata after slowing down to a low speed (without stopping) and then accelerating (GDI engine acts "strange" momentarily bucking / knocking).
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
That is fascinating!I wonder why not from a stop?

I would assume when you come to a complete stop the auto finally changes down into first gear, before that it's still holding a higher gear for fuel economy even when going very slow, put your foot down at low speed in a high gear and you are lugging the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am a big Redline fan, but I think most, if not all, have massive calcium packs.

Is their moly content helpful in this regard, though?


If Redline is high in ZDDP as my memory indicates, that would probably be even more effective than the moly in quenching LSPI despite the high calcium. Being ester based might help even more based upon Infineum's findings with an Ignition Quality Tester (not a full engine).
I guess the only way to know is to actually test, but I doubt Redline is too interested in running dexos1 Gen 2 or GF6/SN+ LSPI tests. Maybe they'll surprise me...
I am not doubting your premise. I am just looking at it, currently, like this. I would rather the LSPI not happen in the first place(calcium) than for it to happen(calcium) and be prevented(ZDP, Moly). I know this is all pre-liminary. Not set in stone.
Here in a year or two(hopefully) we will have more data, and can make a more informed decision. I think I am going to VOA Schaeffer's 7000 series 5W-30, and see if there's a lower-ish calcium level(below 1500).
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I guess the only way to know is to actually test, but I doubt Redline is too interested in running dexos1 Gen 2 or GF6/SN+ LSPI tests. Maybe they'll surprise me...

If they do, they sure as heck won't be certifying.
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not doubting your premise. I am just looking at it, currently, like this. I would rather the LSPI not happen in the first place(calcium) than for it to happen(calcium) and be prevented(ZDP, Moly). I know this is all pre-liminary. Not set in stone.
Here in a year or two(hopefully) we will have more data, and can make a more informed decision. I think I am going to VOA Schaeffer's 7000 series 5W-30, and see if there's a lower-ish calcium level(below 1500).


I also don't like the LSPI "quenching" approach. Moly, ZDP, and other engine oil components that have been speculated to quench LSPI are often in a formula to perform a function related to wear protection, friction reduction and fuel economy improvement. Over the life of the oil, these components are used up. What happens at the end of an oil drain if my oil has used up all it's LSPI quenching power? As far as I know the engine tests are only ever used to evaluate new oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not doubting your premise. I am just looking at it, currently, like this. I would rather the LSPI not happen in the first place(calcium) than for it to happen(calcium) and be prevented(ZDP, Moly). I know this is all pre-liminary. Not set in stone.
Here in a year or two(hopefully) we will have more data, and can make a more informed decision. I think I am going to VOA Schaeffer's 7000 series 5W-30, and see if there's a lower-ish calcium level(below 1500).


I also don't like the LSPI "quenching" approach. Moly, ZDP, and other engine oil components that have been speculated to quench LSPI are often in a formula to perform a function related to wear protection, friction reduction and fuel economy improvement. Over the life of the oil, these components are used up. What happens at the end of an oil drain if my oil has used up all it's LSPI quenching power? As far as I know the engine tests are only ever used to evaluate new oil.

That is certainly a good point. You could argue the calcium level also lowers, but this may not be as linear as the other additives. It looks like M1 is the only manufacturer across the board that has lowered thier calcium levels(in most cases).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
I am not doubting your premise. I am just looking at it, currently, like this. I would rather the LSPI not happen in the first place(calcium) than for it to happen(calcium) and be prevented(ZDP, Moly). I know this is all pre-liminary. Not set in stone.
Here in a year or two(hopefully) we will have more data, and can make a more informed decision. I think I am going to VOA Schaeffer's 7000 series 5W-30, and see if there's a lower-ish calcium level(below 1500).


I basically agree with you and have been using M1 5W30s that I felt were very likely to be low in calcium for some time.
I have been thinking about SoJ's comments about LSPI supposedly not being a factor in Europe. I really don't know what the situation is there and he should know a lot better than me, so I'm wondering if what I perceive to be widespread use of high SAPS oils with lots of ZDDP there might be leading to a low overall occurrence of LSPI events despite many of those oils having a big dose of calcium.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have been thinking about SoJ's comments about LSPI supposedly not being a factor in Europe.

I wonder how much gasoline formulation can affect it.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have been thinking about SoJ's comments about LSPI supposedly not being a factor in Europe.

I wonder how much gasoline formulation can affect it.




That was my guess as well. Europe generally has stricter gasoline standards which results in a cleaner and better fuel for these engines.
 
Funny.. (not really) you should mention fuel, I have been having LSPI events in my 2016 Forester XT which has slowly been getting worse over the last six mouth to the point it was happening ever time I drove it.
It turns out it was 98 Octane (93 AKI) that was the cause, changed to 95 (91 AKI) and it stopped within 50 Km's (done it once) and hasn't done it since.
 
Originally Posted By: bigunz

Funny.. (not really) you should mention fuel, I have been having LSPI events in my 2016 Forester XT which has slowly been getting worse over the last six mouth to the point it was happening ever time I drove it.
It turns out it was 98 Octane (93 AKI) that was the cause, changed to 95 (91 AKI) and it stopped within 50 Km's (done it once) and hasn't done it since.

That's interesting. I would have thought that LSPI events would be worse with lower octane gas.
 
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: bigunz

Funny.. (not really) you should mention fuel, I have been having LSPI events in my 2016 Forester XT which has slowly been getting worse over the last six mouth to the point it was happening ever time I drove it.
It turns out it was 98 Octane (93 AKI) that was the cause, changed to 95 (91 AKI) and it stopped within 50 Km's (done it once) and hasn't done it since.

That's interesting. I would have thought that LSPI events would be worse with lower octane gas.
Theoretically, that would be true. But we don't know the particulars of the gas formulation.
 
Hmmm...given that detergents in oil have been shown to have effects on LSPI occurrence, I wonder if the detergents in gasoline could also have similar effects?
I tried a couple of quick googles and didn't find anything meaningful concerning what types of detergents are used in gas.
 
Great share, bigj_16! Even if the sciencedirect.com article is rather long. What this tells me is that this issue's complexities grow the more we learn.
 
The fuel issue looks like this to me, just my opinion:
According to different sources, there are any where from 45-70 blends of gas in the U.S. Therefore, unless a specific component can be isolated in gasoline, that is common across the spectrum, the attention can not be focused on gasoline. That is assuming it is a component that could even be altered or removed. Also, it looks as if gasoline contribution to the LSPI issue is probably tertiary. The manufacturers can specify a certain oil, so that is probably what is they are going to do.
 
Yep my head is spinning
crazy.gif


I was thinking about this and it could be endless with what it could be.

The problem could be caused by a multitude of different or linked things and everything inbetween when it comes to fuel, from it been just a change in the octane from 98 to 95 and the ecm removing timing with 95 etc to stop it happening or from particles of unburnt 98 fuel hiding in the ringlands (being more resistant to burn) to excesses of soot caused by the extra octane booster been uses or even the claimed 25% extra detergents from 95 to 98 ( I have read some detergents can cause carbon too) or even too much of a particular solvent in the fuel and most probably a lot more other things as well.
 
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