LSJr Motor Oil Geek on fuel additives

[kschachn]

So let me get this straight. People are worried about having low Noack oil - thus touting the GM Dexos standard everywhere, or better, having to run full synthetics and such… While at the same time, thinking it’s good to put two stroke oil into their fuel?

Why? How? For what purpose? Anti wear? That seems to be.. the exact opposite.

It does seem like a lot of imagination.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

From what TMOG presented, the oil lubrication in the piston ring area isn't sufficient. Watch the video. The UCL in the fuel will coat that area along with the top of the piston. Not to mention lubricate fuel pump and injectors.

 

[kschachn]

From what TMOG presented, the oil lubrication in the piston ring area isn't sufficient. Watch the video. The UCL in the fuel will coat that area along with the top of the piston. Not to mention lubricate fuel pump and injectors.

It won’t lubricate the fuel pump and the injectors do not need lubricating with a UCL. This is a common erroneous claim for UCL products.

As for the other claim that the oil lubrication in the piston ring not being sufficient, how did I make it to the miles on all my cars without a UCL? I’ve never used one, ever. I also have had other high-miles cars including a BMW with a quarter million miles.

 

[Foxtrot08]

From what TMOG presented, the oil lubrication in the piston ring area isn't sufficient. Watch the video. The UCL in the fuel will coat that area along with the top of the piston. Not to mention lubricate fuel pump and injectors.

I already wrote extensively why Lake shouldn’t have touched this topic.


But, I would really stress asking yourself “why?” With this above post. Why do you need all that? What is it actually doing? Let alone why two stroke oil? That… knowingly carbons up? Aren’t rings already have carbon issues in some engines? Aren’t injector tips being affected by carbon? Wouldn’t that affect spray patterns? Which would directly affect carbon build up and power?

Just food for thought.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Isn't TC-W3 oil clean burning (ashless)? Didn't realize it carbons up. I've only used Lucas and Rislone so far but considering move to TC-W3 because its cheaper and many people have had success with it. My engine sounds better using this stuff that's all I know. If it's coating these vulnerable areas too and providing extra protection like Lake says than great! I'm talking a dose of 4 ounces in an 18 gallon tank to keep things in perspective.

 

[kschachn]

Ashless does not mean it will never leave carbon from an incomplete combustion. It means there are no metallic additives which leave metal-based ash. Any hydrocarbon which isn’t completely combusted will leave a carbon deposit.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Isn't TC-W3 oil clean burning (ashless)? Didn't realize it carbons up. I've only used Lucas and Rislone so far but considering move to TC-W3 because its cheaper and many people have had success with it. My engine sounds better using this stuff that's all I know. If it's coating these vulnerable areas too and providing extra protection like Lake says than great! I'm talking a dose of 4 ounces in an 18 gallon tank to keep things in perspective.

Ashless means it’s sulfated ash free. Which is your non-combustible metals - so, typically your ZDDP/ZDP and any other non-combustible material, such as magnesium.

It will absolutely still carbon up, as the carbon comes from the oil burning.


So alright. Let’s take the 18 gallons. Let’s say an average of 30mpg. Over the course of 200,000 miles - approximately ~6,700 gallons of fuel burned. Or 372 tanks of gasoline, or about 12 gallons of two stroke oil. At on the low end, we will say $35 a gallon for no name brand. On the high end, double it.

That’s $540… to add.. what?

Napkin maff again. So you’re going to put more carbon into your EGR? To put more carbon down stream? Turbo / exhaust system? To be unburnt in the cylinders and actually carbon up the rings? To prevent some sort of unnamed wear that until a week ago, basically no one cared about, because someone made a video that oh my god, this might* be happening to your engine! Doooom!


Where, there’s zero supporting studies two stroke oil actually helps anything. And I also don’t see any two stroke oils registered as a gasoline fuel additive with the EPA - here: https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-gas.htm


I mean you do you, I want to sell more oil. It’s how I pay the grocery bills and keep the lights on. I’m just providing critical thoughts on “okay… why are you doing that?”

 

[TomYoung]

It's always on sale for $7 a pop at your local auto parts store. It's not going to hurt anything. Who cares really

Maybe 98% of those on BITOG. My guess.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Ashless means it’s sulfated ash free. Which is your non-combustible metals - so, typically your ZDDP/ZDP and any other non-combustible material, such as magnesium.

It will absolutely still carbon up, as the carbon comes from the oil burning.


So alright. Let’s take the 18 gallons. Let’s say an average of 30mpg. Over the course of 200,000 miles - approximately ~6,700 gallons of fuel burned. Or 372 tanks of gasoline, or about 12 gallons of two stroke oil. At on the low end, we will say $35 a gallon for no name brand. On the high end, double it.

That’s $540… to add.. what?

Napkin maff again. So you’re going to put more carbon into your EGR? To put more carbon down stream? Turbo / exhaust system? To be unburnt in the cylinders and actually carbon up the rings? To prevent some sort of unnamed wear that until a week ago, basically no one cared about, because someone made a video that oh my god, this might* be happening to your engine! Doooom!


Where, there’s zero supporting studies two stroke oil actually helps anything. And I also don’t see any two stroke oils registered as a gasoline fuel additive with the EPA - here: https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-gas.htm


I mean you do you, I want to sell more oil. It’s how I pay the grocery bills and keep the lights on. I’m just providing critical thoughts on “okay… why are you doing that?”

Thanks for explaining that it still carbons up. I learn a ton in this forum. I assume the name brand stuff does as well. Wonder if Bob would recommend SoyUltra.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Maybe 98% of those on BITOG. My guess.

This joint was really big on top oil with MMO and TC-W3 a decade ago. Seems to have faded.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

From what TMOG presented, the oil lubrication in the piston ring area isn't sufficient.

He never presented it that way. Basically he spoke about a study on differences in wear as seen on a test rig using premium and non-premium fuel. He then stretched that difference to differences in wear per UOA's where they expect the wear to be the same. I'm assuming he's talking within the same engine.

 

[odie]

There are other videos of Lake Speed Jr. speaking of engine(s) , oil , direct injection , gasoline and oil / gas additives at Porsche Club Of America ( PCA ) . Found them helpful .

Videos at P.C.A. : Relates to all engines small and large .

2 years ago : " What You Need To Know About Fuel and Additves For Your PORSCHE "

1 year ago : " How To Keep Your PORSCHE Engine Running Right : Oils , Fuel And Oil Analysis "

3 Months Ago : " The Good , The Bad And The Ugly Of Fuel And Oil Additives "

 

[MolaKule]

Thanks for explaining that it still carbons up. I learn a ton in this forum. I assume the name brand stuff does as well. Wonder if Bob would recommend SoyUltra.

I would recommend you and others review this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/two-cycle-oil-formulations.381474/

Two-cycle oils can produce low deposits, not zero deposits.

SoyUltra contains similar ingredients as Berryman's B-12 and others but contains an additional cleaner called Methyl Soyate, and ester derived from Soy oil.

Whatever is added to the fuel, by the time it enters the combustion chamber, it is so diluted I do not see how any lubrication properties remain.

"The typical OTC fuel injector cleaners and PEA combustion chamber cleaners, or mixes thereof, contain a series of solvents in a 2-4 cSt carrier oil."
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/polyisobutyleneamine-piba-dca.386915/

and

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/upper-cylinder-lubricant-which-best-brand.358647/page-8 post 142.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

This is a really convincing video by Lubrizol. They even suggest some of the friction modifiers will fall into the crankcase afterwards, which will boost your motor oil with extra friction modifiers. Great marketing!

 

[Foxtrot08]

This is a really convincing video by Lubrizol. They even suggest some of the friction modifiers will fall into the crankcase afterwards, which will boost your motor oil with extra friction modifiers. Great marketing!

So, critical thinking:

Does 2 stroke oil have that?

Are you buying an additive that, has FM’s in it? That are actually useful in that application? Or designed to be in that application? From Oronite / Afton / Innospec / Lubrizol? Are there already enough in your gasoline?

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Before this thread I would have called any UCL a "friction modifier". Now I realize it's just snake oil.

 

[4WD]

Before this thread I would have called UCL a friction modifier. Now I realize it's just snake oil.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I also want to address something with “amount” of additives in fuel.

This is a few part post.

- If I have two additives, that both accomplish the same goal in the fuel. Whether it’s FM, cold pour point, PEA, whatever. One is a treat rate of 1:500 (1 gal treats 500 gal) and the other is 1:1500. Is it fair to advertise the 1:500 as having 3x more additives in the treated fuel? Even though it will statistically be the same fuel as the 1:1500?


(The above happens all the time with diesel fuel additives.)


Secondly - much like in oil, only a handful of players make the base materials. This is actually more easily discoverable in fuel additives, because of the EPA registrations required for it. There are additive makers, then there are blenders. For example, a few of my companies are registered blenders. We do not make anything.

Without extensive fuel testing, you don’t know how an additive performs. Nor, if you’re just buying off the shelf, outside of say Techron, do you know who really is making it.

Is brand important to you? If so, why?


Have you ever done fuel testing in your area? Or know where your gasoline comes from? For example - where does shell’s gas in the U.S. come from?

Just again, more food for thought.

 

[MolaKule]

This is a really convincing video by Lubrizol. They even suggest some of the friction modifiers will fall into the crankcase afterwards, which will boost your motor oil with extra friction modifiers. Great marketing!

I am less impressed, of course.

In formulating engine oils, friction modifiers are already included in the DI additive package, and it has been determined that only specific levels of FM's can be added.

More FM's than necessary can be antagonistic; that is, they may conflict with other additives. More of this additive than necessary does not improve friction reduction and may actually increase wear.

See, Tribology Letters (2019) 67:83 https://doi.org/10.1007/s11249-019-1198-z ORIGINAL PAPER Friction Modifier Additives, Synergies and Antagonisms

Sure, any FM in the fuel that does not survive combustion will be carried down with the oil.

Then we have to ask the question, how? Because there was an oil film in the uppermost portions of the cylinder to begin with to 'carry' it down, fuel additive or not.

 

[odie]

Youtube video from Porshe Club Of America (P.C.A.) " How To Prevent Or Slow The Progression Of Bore Scoring In Your PORSCHE M96/97 ( #3of 4 ) " they talk of PREMIUM fuel (especially Top Tier ) and its benefit not just for PROSCHE but all engines , particularly those using D.I.. Discussion starts at 3:14 > 7:59 . At 4:01 he's talks of the Top Tier and non Top Tier PREMIUM fuel tests from AAA that's below .

This applies to the results above . Hopefully they're the same or close to the results 16 years ago .