LSJr Motor Oil Geek on fuel additives

[ARCOgraphite]

I checked the flashpoints of MMO, Rislone, TC-W3 and all are in the 200F range like most additives. Lucas fuel treatment is 450F! I assume the low dose of Lucas mixed with a full tank of gas wouldn't cause any combustion issues and fuel dilution. Is this fair to say?

Pouring the entire gallon in might be a problem though.

What is the concern over flashpoint with an UCL?

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Someone brought up what if the UCL flashpoint is higher than the temperature in the cylinder. Would some of it not combust and end up in the sump. I assume very little if you're only mixing in 6 ounces per tank but I have no idea.

 

[puellarum]

Which item do you mean? I average about $5 per tank between a cleaner and ucl. But I agree who cares if you believe it's helping even a little. I bought a used car with unknown history so I feel it's justified.

Generally, every time I visit AutoZone or O'Reilly's, they have one of the fuel additive products sitting up at the cash register two for the price of one or whatever deal. I don't really remember the brand. Sometimes Lucas, sometimes. maybe Chevron brand? I must have easily 6-8 of them sitting in my garage somewhere that I just grabbed. I have no idea if it's snake oil, but I'm confident it at least doesn't hurt anything.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Autozone has BOGO Techron Complete and High Mileage this month. The High Mileage has friction modifiers.

 

[Jetronic]

What is the concern over flashpoint with an UCL?

That you might introduce a knock prone substance to the combustion chamber, I would think.

 

[si1491]

But what’s the point of adding an “upper cylinder lubricant” to the sump full of a fully-formulated engine oil? Again, over the lifespan of an engine, the oil spends infinitely more time in contact with the ring pack (especially on oil burners), so would you not want an engine oil that’s formulated to keep those areas clean?

Nothing you dump in the tank is required to disclose what’s in it, nor do they have any set of standards to steer the consumer away from pure garbage (is this why Lucas pushes its UCL more heavily than its engine oils??). The aftermarket fuel additive business is a cash cow, and at the consumer’s expense, literally and figuratively. Engine oils and gasolines from all major outlets have standards and oversight bodies.

I agree that you want to keep those areas clean, but it is interesting to see what is happening in those areas with relation to oil, fuel, and friction modifiers (from the fuel). In the video, around the 6:50 mark, he mentions that they sampled the oil coming from the piston control ring. The oil coming back was very different than what was in the sump due to temperature and fuel exposure. This appears to be because of the small amount of oil in that area and its' exposure to the fuel, temperature, and pressure is only a very small amount when compared to the volume in the sump, therefore these aspects have a greater effect on the oil in piston ring area compared to the oil in the sump. At about 7:55, he shows the friction coefficient between the current sump oil and the top ring zone oil samples.

I do find this video interesting. Not sure if Costco or Shell U.S. is implementing these FMs in their Shell V-Power NiTRO+ (Shell when fuel reward points reduce the price to below Costco's price). I may never know but I wonder if Schaeffers SoyUltra does more for my vehicles I use it in.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Again I'm not an engineer. But it sounds to me that even good oil alone isn't providing enough protection to the piston ring area. This is due to the fact that gas collects in this area and contaminates oil making it less effective. Therefore Motor Oil Geek is suggesting that high quality fuel additives (like those in Shell Nitro+) can in fact add that extra protection to the piston ring area that oil can't provide.

I'm saying a tank of Shell Nitro+ is expensive. Why can't I get budget 87 gas and add a decent cleaner and UCL? This is cheaper than a tank of Shell Nitro+ and you may not have access to a Shell station. I understand the question remains, will it accomplish the same goal?

 

[methusaleh]

s

Again I'm not an engineer. But it sounds to me that even good oil alone isn't providing enough protection to the piston ring area. This is due to the fact that gas collects in this area and contaminates oil making it less effective. Therefore Motor Oil Geek is suggesting that high quality fuel additives (like those in Shell Nitro+) can in fact add that extra protection to the piston ring area that oil can't provide.

I'm saying a tank of Shell Nitro+ is expensive. Why can't I get budget 87 gas and add a decent cleaner and UCL? This is cheaper than a tank of Shell Nitro+ and you may not have access to a Shell station. I understand the question remains, will it accomplish the same goal?

You read my mind!

A short search online doesn’t easily answer the question either…we will need our resident experts!

 

[Foxtrot08]

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You read my mind!

A short search online doesn’t easily answer the question either…we will need our resident experts!

This is an extremely complex topic. And I’m saying that as someone that owns a company that manufactures fuel additives.

Here’s some things to read:

https://innospec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/SAE_19_01_2356.pdf

(Paywalled, but you can read the Meta of the article) - https://saemobilus.sae.org/papers/a...erformance-particulate-emissions-2022-01-1074

(Same) - https://saemobilus.sae.org/papers/s...ket-fuel-additive-concentrations-2020-01-2100

https://www.atc-europe.org/public/Doc113 2013-11-20.pdf

Free with account - https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2020-01-0619/


I can go on and on about this topic. That being said, I’m going to make a few blanket statements. Take them however you will, this is the internet.

- UGST are ugly. They’re dirty, they get contamination in them all the time. A station’s tank maintenance and fuel maintenance is extremely important.

- Not all fuel is created equally, actually, every refinery’s fuel is different. And the regulations are set up to be a minimum. Also “what am best gas” is going to change throughout the year. Depends on the crude sources, depends on the refinery operations, depends on a lot of very complex factors.

- Over treatment with fuel additives, or treatment with the wrong fuel additives is at best a waste of money, at worse harmful to your vehicle.

- The only fuel additives that have been proven effective time and time again, are Nitrogen based Amines, Aka P.E.A - I believe Molecule has covered the chemistry of this before, on this site. Which is why they’re basically in all premium gasoline now.


- If an OTC fuel additive makes some absurd claim, that’s because it’s marketing and not reality. If something really was so good, it would be in everything. Like Amine based fuel additives are now.


- OTC additives vs Premium fuel costs - this is a Maff problem. Look at the concentration in the bottle, compare the costs to running premium. Figure it out from there, factor in the gain from higher octane at the pump, etc.

- There is zero quality standards for fuel additives. Only EPA registration that you’re not affecting / altering emissions in a bad way. So companies can claim anything, put it in a bottle, and market it. Some of these claims will include absurd fuel economy increases. Super duper cleaning claims. And basically anything with nano in the name, or claims, is ********.

- Don’t overthink this subject. It is far, far, far, more complex than any of this that I’m stating. The world of how fuel, actually gets to your tank, is an amazing supply chain.


Lake, really, really, really shouldn’t have made this video. Without going into some of the nuances or weeds of the industry… he’s giving a poor, vague overview.

 

[4WD]

Well that was my question really. I suppose a friction modifier that gets consumed could be replenished that way, but is it needed? And I'm not talking aftermarket additives.

I think the main two who have designed/marketed add packs are Shell V Power and Exxon/Mobil Synergy (contain FM) …

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

Thanks for the great response Foxtrot. May I ask what fuel additives you were involved in making? I figured there would be no definitive answer since Shell doesn't disclose what's in Nitro. Then adding additives later changes the formulation. But I'll continue to distrust what's at the pump even with premium gas. Who truly knows what's in there even though it looks good on paper.

Like you said, PEA is proven as an effective cleaner. I've read that consistently in this forum. Just have to buy in bulk which keeps the cost down and still is cheaper than Nitro+. Gumout Regane HM and Techron HM have friction modifiers and will both work as a single bottle solution.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Thanks for the great response Foxtrot. May I ask what fuel additives you were involved in making? I figured there would be no definitive answer since Shell doesn't disclose what's in Nitro. Then adding additives later changes the formulation so no way of knowing exactly what's needed.

Like you said, PEA is proven as an effective cleaner. I've read that consistently in this forum. Just have to buy in bulk which keeps the cost down and still is cheaper that Nitro+. Gumout Regane HM and Techron HM will both do this if you want a single bottle solution.

We own a large tank cleaning company - we clean from 200 gal tanks, to the big 5 million gallon tanks. Under ground, above ground. On ships. Back up generators for hospitals, data centers, etc. Doing third party verified maintenance on them as well, for fuel quality and reliability. Basically operating from east of the Mississippi and into Texas a bit.

Essentially, we customized bulk fuel additives to meet the requirements of the end user. Whether it was the Fed Gov, hospital systems, marine applications. As we still run into a lot of high sulfur diesel fuel out there. We dabbled in some gasoline additives as well. I don’t really want to name names, but we shared technology with some fairly common name brands in the diesel world.


Tank maintenance and integrity is one of the key factors in my opinion, deciding on fuel. After seeing what comes out of the bottom of storage tanks… you’re like “well then…”

And suddenly Lake’s “oh my god the wear!” Video is like “ehhh… might be more factors here in play…”

Add in the knowledge of the retail fuel side, mid stream and refining side. Yeah…


I use mid grade. I know it’s blended at the pump. I just feel that 90-91 octane, plus an occasional OTC additive, is a good bang for the buck. Premium is about a $1.20 more than regular here for me. I don’t mind fuel costs - as, I don’t actually pay for fuel directly. It’s just price vs reward for me. That’s where my napkin maff ended up.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

That you might introduce a knock prone substance to the combustion chamber, I would think.

This is where I found ashless ND 30 to work well in the past, promotes hydraulic seal near the top ringland and valvestem lubrication and centering. And it is a "clean" lubricant vs your PCV vapour recirc.

With current DI I have more static compression than I want or need, and plenty of light oil in the crankcase that gets where it needs to be I would imagine.

 

[odie]

He ( T. M.O.G. ) talks of gasoline additives in the video " The Good , The Bad and Ugly Of Fuel and Oil Additives " from PORSHE CLUB OF AMERICA ( P.C.A. ) . Gas additives with P.E.A. discussion starts at 6:32 into video and at 54:10 that mentions T.T. gas and P.E.A..

 

[odie]

Here are the additive levels in tested gasolines at a lab . Not sure if it would still apply to this time since it was posted 13 years ago . Hopefully it is . Can't find anything newer for comparison .

These are from this video :

 

[MolaKule]

Again I'm not an engineer. But it sounds to me that even good oil alone isn't providing enough protection to the piston ring area. This is due to the fact that gas collects in this area and contaminates oil making it less effective. Therefore Motor Oil Geek is suggesting that high quality fuel additives (like those in Shell Nitro+) can in fact add that extra protection to the piston ring area that oil can't provide.

What's the wear baseline? How much wear protection is needed for the piston ring over and above what the engine oil provides?

Don't confuse friction modification with wear reduction.

Fuel doesn't "collect." Fuel is mixed with the oil and most of the fuel is combusted with a very tiny fraction of the oil combusted. The fuel thins the oil reducing the viscosity slightly.

 

[MolaKule]

Here are the additive levels in tested gasolines at a lab . Not sure if it would still apply to this time since it was posted 13 years ago . Hopefully it is . Can't find anything newer for comparison.

How much of those additive percentages are Decanes, toluenes, xylenes, TRIMETHYL BENZENEs, alcohols, ETHYLHEXANOLs, NAPHTHALENEs, and PEA's?

 

[Revving2Redline]

The Motor Oil Geek posted a video this week saying he thinks fuel additives do protect against piston wear, and are just as important as quality oil. It's lengthy and technical but that's his conclusion. I always add a bottle of Regane plus a dose of UCL with every tank. Definitely happy to see an industry professional like Motor Oil Geek come out supporting extra additives.

While the TT fuel is a improvement, its nowhere near the level of cleaning or results as high % pea fuel system cleaning so there is a need for them. Lately ive been on the 89 octane kick and this midgrade with lesser than 10 % ethanol has been the sweet spot. Results are slightly off as i always round up to the next dollar. Still happy to get around 33 mpg going against the wind and then with it. Lately BP has been cheaper than QT and their e10 is in all the grades but only 87 bp is 10 %.

 

[5thgennissanaltima]

"Don't confuse friction modification with wear reduction."

That may be true but I think I've seen enough evidence now that suggests a UCL may reduce friction, combined with a PEA cleaner. That's enough for me to consider it worth a shot. A few ounces of 2-stroke oil costs less than a dollar and isn't harming anything.

 

[Foxtrot08]

That may be true but I think I've seen enough evidence now that suggests a UCL may reduce friction, combined with a PEA cleaner. That's enough for me to consider it worth a shot. A few ounces of 2-stroke oil costs less than a dollar and isn't harming anything.

So let me get this straight. People are worried about having low Noack oil - thus touting the GM Dexos standard everywhere, or better, having to run full synthetics and such… While at the same time, thinking it’s good to put two stroke oil into their fuel?

Why? How? For what purpose? Anti wear? That seems to be.. the exact opposite.