LSJr- Do “Film Strength” Testers Tell The TRUTH?

[burbguy82]

The HPL gear oil portion of the video was pretty telling though, IMO.

That rig was made to test EP values of gear oil? right? That HPL had some pretty heavy results there.....worth
noting

 

[Hohn]

The HPL gear oil portion of the video was pretty telling though, IMO.

That rig was made to test EP values of gear oil? right? That HPL had some pretty heavy results there.....worth
noting

Yes,and my order of Differential Life just showed up! I understand the gear oil in the video was not differential life, but a one-off custom blend for the race car. Still, it shows the expertise HPL is bringing to the table.

GX460 is in for a treat!

 

[buster]

Amsoil still shows 4-ball wear for their Dominator like. Not sure why they do that. They should know better.

 

[Pablo]

Amsoil still shows 4-ball wear for their Dominator like. Not sure why they do that. They should know better.

Just leftover I guess

 

[Hohn]

Amsoil still shows 4-ball wear for their Dominator like. Not sure why they do that. They should know better.

Maybe, but it’s arguable that it’s closer to relevant for a race engine. A race engine doesn’t care about wear in terms of how we think of it. Nobody care about a couple PPM one way or another in the UOA. Rather, a race engine needs more EP additives and margin for when you push things too far into boundary lubrication. It’s failure/seizure vs function. IN that case, it’s arguable that an EP kind of test like the 4 ball or even the Timken bearing test from the LSJr might have some relevance.

 

[Jetronic]

Maybe, but it’s arguable that it’s closer to relevant for a race engine. A race engine doesn’t care about wear in terms of how we think of it. Nobody care about a couple PPM one way or another in the UOA. Rather, a race engine needs more EP additives and margin for when you push things too far into boundary lubrication. It’s failure/seizure vs function. IN that case, it’s arguable that an EP kind of test like the 4 ball or even the Timken bearing test from the LSJr might have some relevance.

And then there's motorcycle oils, that run in the engine and transmission (granted without the final reduction) and tend to get run hard. PF had a motul 10W-30 MC oil on his bandit, that showed a similar wear scar reduction as the HPL in LSJR's video. Those type oils likely are closer to race engine oils.

Edit: that oil also showed a very low power consumption figure compared to others.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Maybe, but it’s arguable that it’s closer to relevant for a race engine. A race engine doesn’t care about wear in terms of how we think of it. Nobody care about a couple PPM one way or another in the UOA. Rather, a race engine needs more EP additives and margin for when you push things too far into boundary lubrication. It’s failure/seizure vs function. IN that case, it’s arguable that an EP kind of test like the 4 ball or even the Timken bearing test from the LSJr might have some relevance.

Yes I was thinking pushrod v8 valvetrain.
Solid rollers, pushrod cups, roller rocker needle rollers, valve stem tips... Especially with solid cams, double triple springs etc. These are forces you won't get in OHC engines.

 

[Hohn]

Yes I was thinking pushrod v8 valvetrain.
Solid rollers, pushrod cups, roller rocker needle rollers, valve stem tips... Especially with solid cams, double triple springs etc. These are forces you won't get in OHC engines.

Not really. Every engine has sliding contact. The differences between engines are differences of degree, not of kind.

“Flat” tappet cams don’t even have sliding contact because the lifters should be spinning in their bores. The differences between a “flat” can and a roller cam are the degrees of axis rotation. The flat tappet rotates on an axis just off vertical— maybe 8 degrees or so. The roller rotates horizontally. But they are both rotating and essentially see rolling contact on the cam.

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Not really. Every engine has sliding contact. The differences between engines are differences of degree, not of kind.

“Flat” tappet cams don’t even have sliding contact because the lifters should be spinning in their bores. The differences between a “flat” can and a roller cam are the degrees of axis rotation. The flat tappet rotates on an axis just off vertical— maybe 8 degrees or so. The roller rotates horizontally. But they are both rotating and essentially see rolling contact on the cam.

I wasn't talking about the cam contact.
Needle bearings, push rod cups, valve stem tips. Especially with high spring pressures and solid lifters.
Lash means the drive from the cam is discontinuous as well, constantly starting and stopping.
Bearing failure is a known problem in these situations. Perhaps a test which is developed for bearings is relevant in this case.
Hot street and race engines.

 

[Oillover]

So in short, Don't rely on these lubricity testers to show which oil performs "best" in your engine. There are different forces going on in an engine that a lubricity tester can't & does not show.

I generally don't rely on most, including LSJr's tests alone.
Most are just clickbait with a few grains of useful information.

 

[Cujet]

Lab testing equipment can be configured to mimic real world conditions and provide useful information. The engineers are more than intelligent enough to understand tester limits.

Mentioned by me many times here, while working for Mobil Oil's flight department, we tested 254 HTS turbine engine oil and SHC100 grease. Being the new employee, I sometimes had the task of driving the removed bearings over to the lab for Scanning Electron Microscope review. I loved speaking with the engineers and learning what I could.

Like LSJr's camshaft tests, I stand firmly in the 'actual measurement' camp, just like Mobil Oil's engineers. I also find no surprise in the low wear numbers of M1, 15W-50. It is a fantastic oil that has for years, performed exceptionally well in very high output turbocharged race car engines.

 

[userfriendly]

Not just any - it was dandruff shampoo with zinc

I’ve come to the conclusion that Driven motor oils are group one Penn State crude with a few drops of household bleach and a squirt of Pert Plus.
Search chlorinated paraffins.

 

[Al]

He probably disagrees with what I learned in Mechanical Engineering 55 years ago. I'll pass and not give him his two minutes of fame.

 

[Hohn]

I wasn't talking about the cam contact.
Needle bearings, push rod cups, valve stem tips. Especially with high spring pressures and solid lifters.
Lash means the drive from the cam is discontinuous as well, constantly starting and stopping.
Bearing failure is a known problem in these situations. Perhaps a test which is developed for bearings is relevant in this case.
Hot street and race engines.

Right. But all that exists in a regular engine, too. Hot street and race engines don’t have different *kinds* of stress on the oil, they have different *degrees* of stress.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Not really. Every engine has sliding contact. The differences between engines are differences of degree, not of kind.

“Flat” tappet cams don’t even have sliding contact because the lifters should be spinning in their bores. The differences between a “flat” can and a roller cam are the degrees of axis rotation. The flat tappet rotates on an axis just off vertical— maybe 8 degrees or so. The roller rotates horizontally. But they are both rotating and essentially see rolling contact on the cam.

Engines with flat lifters and pushrods put more boundary lubrication stress on the components than a typical modern OHV valve train that has direct cam lobe actuation of a flat tappet/shimmed bucket that actuate the valves. Some V8s like the Ford Coyote use small finger followers with a roller that runs directly on the cam. And when you increase valve spring force on flat lifter pushrod engines (like most high performance modified ones are) the boundary lubrication stress increases even more.

 

[burbguy82]

He probably disagrees with what I learned in Mechanical Engineering 55 years ago. I'll pass and not give him his two minutes of fame.

which is what?

 

[userfriendly]

He probably disagrees with what I learned in Mechanical Engineering 55 years ago. I'll pass and not give him his two minutes of fame.

I don’t know why, his test engine in other videos is a 70 year old design.

 

[Mainia]

Yes,and my order of Differential Life just showed up! I understand the gear oil in the video was not differential life, but a one-off custom blend for the race car. Still, it shows the expertise HPL is bringing to the table.

GX460 is in for a treat!

The HPL outcome made me feel a bit better. I am in the process of testing HPL industrial oils for my works very picky Atlas Copco rotary screw air compressors that varnish up high end PAO 8,000 hr oil in 800 hrs. I am testing their Compressor Life 12,000 and I dump all 12,000 hr oil at 8,000-8500. My previous Summit Industrial lubrication/Kluber group 5 turbine oil has MORE then doubled in price. Also testing some oil for out CAT pumps for humidification sprayers.

At home I have HPL GL-4/GL-5 oil for the trans and 75w-90 diff oil waiting to get changed out after I get my new clutch for the Kona in signiture below.

 

[TiGeo]

He probably disagrees with what I learned in Mechanical Engineering 55 years ago. I'll pass and not give him his two minutes of fame.

Can you explain further?

 

[LordNilesStandish]

Right. But all that exists in a regular engine, too. Hot street and race engines don’t have different *kinds* of stress on the oil, they have different *degrees* of stress.

Regular engines don't have needle roller bearings and 500 lb/inch springs.