Low SAPS oil question

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: loneryder
Eddyvw, I'm going by what the experienced MB guy said in his article. I'm not claiming to know anything. That's why I posed the question. Sometimes it seems that everyone just wants to argue on here. I have followed your posts for some time and always enjoy them.
Those Mobil 1 esp oils don't give any info on what classifications they meet, just that it meets MB specs which I have never seen.

M1 5W30 ESP is approved by Mercedes Benz for MB 229.51. Valvoline 5W40 MST is approved for MB 229.51, Motul 5W40 X-Clean is approved for MB 229.51 etc, etc.
If you go to Europe, just chat with any German cab driver what they use in their MB's and they rack up much harder miles then you and me.
I do not understand what you mean by "classification?"

 

[loneryder]

Whether it is CK,CJ,C3 etc. All I know is that they meet 229.51 standards and have no idea what they are.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: loneryder
Whether it is CK,CJ,C3 etc. All I know is that they meet 229.51 standards and have no idea what they are.

Wait, you have Mercedes Benz, you come here all the time like you said, you know how to search, but you do not know what is MB 229.51?
MB 229.51 is what is IMPORTANT for your car. Forget API CK, Cj etc. MB 229.51 s what matters period.
But, to answer your question, it meets ACEA C3 (and C2), JASO-DL1 etc, etc.
You can all find here:
Mobil1 0/5W30 ESP specifications

 

[loneryder]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
Whether it is CK,CJ,C3 etc. All I know is that they meet 229.51 standards and have no idea what they are.

Wait, you have Mercedes Benz, you come here all the time like you said, you know how to search, but you do not know what is MB 229.51?
MB 229.51 is what is IMPORTANT for your car. Forget API CK, Cj etc. MB 229.51 s what matters period.
But, to answer your question, it meets ACEA C3 (and C2), JASO-DL1 etc, etc.
You can all find here:
Mobil1 0/5W30 ESP specifications


Sorry to have riled you up.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: loneryder
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: loneryder
Whether it is CK,CJ,C3 etc. All I know is that they meet 229.51 standards and have no idea what they are.

Wait, you have Mercedes Benz, you come here all the time like you said, you know how to search, but you do not know what is MB 229.51?
MB 229.51 is what is IMPORTANT for your car. Forget API CK, Cj etc. MB 229.51 s what matters period.
But, to answer your question, it meets ACEA C3 (and C2), JASO-DL1 etc, etc.
You can all find here:
Mobil1 0/5W30 ESP specifications


Sorry to have riled you up.

You did not, it just sound strange to me that you own MB for some time but you are unfamiliar with MB specifications. MB 229.51 is probably most stringent one when it comes to diesel passenger vehicles.
You worry about API, and API is not even close to MB 229.51.
If you are looking for heavier oil because you worry about whatever problem you might have (I would not) get Valvoline 5W40 MST in local NAPA. It runs for $5.59 for quart this month on sale, it meets ACEA C3, MB 229.51, BMW LL-04, VW 505.01 etc.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.


I'm not sure you understand the difference between soot and ash. Ash is metal-derived oxides and other compounds; they can not and do not burn. They are formed from the burning of whole oil in the combustion chamber, not from (Noack) volatility (which largely comprises light end organics from the base oils). Even a healthy engine will burn a little oil in the cylinders. DPF life is down to how the engine runs and how much oil is burnt and how much ash that oil creates - a lower ash oil will extend this life.

The amount of ash that goes into a DPF is many, many factors lower than the amount of soot. If you lower from 1.0% ash to 0.8% ash with all other factors equal, you extend the DPF life by 20% - over 5 years that's another year of life. My experience of DPFs is from my current Skoda Yeti, which has done 70,000 miles in 5 years with never a moment's thought about the DPF - every so often I notice a regen but it's not often. I use VW 504 00/507 00 oil.

 

[Jetronic]

What is the average ash particle size? Bear in mind the DPF pores are 10µm and soot particles are around 60µm.

 

[loneryder]

Originally Posted By: weasley

I'm not sure you understand the difference between soot and ash. Ash is metal-derived oxides and other compounds; they can not and do not burn. They are formed from the burning of whole oil in the combustion chamber, not from (Noack) volatility (which largely comprises light end organics from the base oils). Even a healthy engine will burn a little oil in the cylinders. DPF life is down to how the engine runs and how much oil is burnt and how much ash that oil creates - a lower ash oil will extend this life.

The amount of ash that goes into a DPF is many, many factors lower than the amount of soot. If you lower from 1.0% ash to 0.8% ash with all other factors equal, you extend the DPF life by 20% - over 5 years that's another year of life. My experience of DPFs is from my current Skoda Yeti, which has done 70,000 miles in 5 years with never a moment's thought about the DPF - every so often I notice a regen but it's not often. I use VW 504 00/507 00 oil.

Thank you. This answers part of my question about the difference in size between 1% and .6% and what it means to the DPF. My interest is in preserving my engine over the DPF. Today it's easy to find someone to professionally clean your DPF and the costs are coming down.(here in the States). People want to say just do what MB says. In the article I attached, an experienced MB service guy thinks that "doing what MB says" is ruining these expensive engines. MB doesn't really care about the used car market. They market to very well off people who mostly lease their cars on advice from accounts, and turn them in every 2-3 yrs. Ex: I have a wealthy friend who bought the GLS diesel. They told him to just bring it in once a year for service. He thinks that is great. I doubt he has ever opened the hood. That is their market and who they cater to. I like most folks on this site am more interested in preserving their vehicles.

 

[loneryder]

Sorry to have riled you up. [/quote]
You did not, it just sound strange to me that you own MB for some time but you are unfamiliar with MB specifications. MB 229.51 is probably most stringent one when it comes to diesel passenger vehicles.
You worry about API, and API is not even close to MB 229.51.
If you are looking for heavier oil because you worry about whatever problem you might have (I would not) get Valvoline 5W40 MST in local NAPA. It runs for $5.59 for quart this month on sale, it meets ACEA C3, MB 229.51, BMW LL-04, VW 505.01 etc. [/quote]

I'm very familiar with the 229.51/52 oils and their 228 predecessors. Always used 229.51. Did you read the article I post in the op?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Regen burns soot and ash since ash regularly ends in DPF due to NOACK. Of course, regen will not be able to get rid of ash as good as soot, but there is constant pollution of DPF by ash due to regular oil evaporation loss. Lower the NOACK, better for DPF.
Of course, if car burns oil due to some failure like oil piston rings or valve stems, well that is different thing.
Also, city vs. HWY driving plays big role in DPF longevity.


I'm not sure you understand the difference between soot and ash. Ash is metal-derived oxides and other compounds; they can not and do not burn. They are formed from the burning of whole oil in the combustion chamber, not from (Noack) volatility (which largely comprises light end organics from the base oils). Even a healthy engine will burn a little oil in the cylinders. DPF life is down to how the engine runs and how much oil is burnt and how much ash that oil creates - a lower ash oil will extend this life.

The amount of ash that goes into a DPF is many, many factors lower than the amount of soot. If you lower from 1.0% ash to 0.8% ash with all other factors equal, you extend the DPF life by 20% - over 5 years that's another year of life. My experience of DPFs is from my current Skoda Yeti, which has done 70,000 miles in 5 years with never a moment's thought about the DPF - every so often I notice a regen but it's not often. I use VW 504 00/507 00 oil.

I understand what is ash and what is soot.
My point is that in process of regen. part of ash will be lost. I get your argument that primary goal of regen. is not to burn ash, but soot.
I had cars, among others Octavia, that made 300,000km with no issues on DPF, using of course VW 504.00/507.00.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: loneryder


Sorry to have riled you up.

You did not, it just sound strange to me that you own MB for some time but you are unfamiliar with MB specifications. MB 229.51 is probably most stringent one when it comes to diesel passenger vehicles.
You worry about API, and API is not even close to MB 229.51.
If you are looking for heavier oil because you worry about whatever problem you might have (I would not) get Valvoline 5W40 MST in local NAPA. It runs for $5.59 for quart this month on sale, it meets ACEA C3, MB 229.51, BMW LL-04, VW 505.01 etc. [/quote]

Quote:
I'm very familiar with the 229.51/52 oils and their 228 predecessors. Always used 229.51. Did you read the article I post in the op?

I did read, and I answered you with some oil options where you can stay with W40 option (if that is what concerns you). I use in summer Valvoline 5W40 MST that has MB 229.51 spec. and ash level is 0.76.
MB 228.51 is listed there for a reason. It is not mistake, it is there because at time when that engine was introduced, oils that met MB 229.31 and especially MB 229.51 (which was introduced in EU around that time) was hard to find in the U.S.
But, think about this. M1 5W30 ESP has HTHS of 3.58, while Motul 5W40 X-Clean has 3.64. Heck even M1 0W40 FS has HTHS 3.6. So really, if you think about it, there is no real difference between M1 5W30 ESP and W40 oils when it comes to HTHS, but M1 5W30 ESP has as far as I know lowest ash level and lowest NOACK level of all oils available on the U.S> market for Euro cars.
On top of that, in VW I would always go with 5W in winter and not 15W.

 

[fireman1073]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me

How will that help?

thin oil, hot running diesel, 10,000 mile oil changes= sludge
me-> 5w40 5,000 oil change, removed engine covers, = long happy life

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me

How will that help?

thin oil, hot running diesel, 10,000 mile oil changes= sludge
me-> 5w40 5,000 oil change, removed engine covers, = long happy life

Since when diesels are running hotter then gas? I cannot bring oil temp. in BMW higher then 80-90c in normal driving. Only when I blast up the Rocky mountains oil temp. will jump to 110-115.
But, I would seriously like to know what grade has to do with sludge? Remove engine covers? Now I heard everything.

 

[fireman1073]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me

How will that help?

thin oil, hot running diesel, 10,000 mile oil changes= sludge
me-> 5w40 5,000 oil change, removed engine covers, = long happy life

Since when diesels are running hotter then gas? I cannot bring oil temp. in BMW higher then 80-90c in normal driving. Only when I blast up the Rocky mountains oil temp. will jump to 110-115.
But, I would seriously like to know what grade has to do with sludge? Remove engine covers? Now I heard everything.


read carefully...i never said diesels run hotter than gasoline engines, my diesel runs hot and mercedes om642 in the gl and ml class will melt the motor mount insides and cook the oil beyond its ability then will sludge so i change my oil at 5,000 miles and use the 5w40 weight.
it's my vehicle and i will run what i want.
i share this info in an effort to help the OP, not so my opinion can be scrutinized by some know it all expert with a cocky mouth
oh and this is a mercedes i speak of, not BMW

 

[edyvw]

So wait, your engine runs hot (I heard other engines run hot too, including BMW) and it will cook 5W30 MB 229.51 but not 5W40 MB229.51? One seriously can read all kind of stuff on BITOG.

 

[fireman1073]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
So wait, your engine runs hot (I heard other engines run hot too, including BMW) and it will cook 5W30 MB 229.51 but not 5W40 MB229.51? One seriously can read all kind of stuff on BITOG.

again you pick through my words to make your point,
i said i removed the plastic engine covers, shortened my oil change interval and use slightly heavier oil
wow, pay attention

tired of attempting normal conversation on here without some smart mouth to criticize every word or opinion

 

[BoiseRob]

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
again you pick through my words to make your point,
i said i removed the plastic engine covers, shortened my oil change interval and use slightly heavier oil
wow, pay attention

tired of attempting normal conversation on here without some smart mouth to criticize every word or opinion


You can select anyone's username under the User List tab and "Ignore User' and their posts are hidden...

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: edyvw
So wait, your engine runs hot (I heard other engines run hot too, including BMW) and it will cook 5W30 MB 229.51 but not 5W40 MB229.51? One seriously can read all kind of stuff on BITOG.

again you pick through my words to make your point,
i said i removed the plastic engine covers, shortened my oil change interval and use slightly heavier oil
wow, pay attention

tired of attempting normal conversation on here without some smart mouth to criticize every word or opinion

I am paying attention, just cannot believe what you writing.
So do tell us, what is oil temperature on that CDI engine that makes 5W30 to sludge?

 

[fireman1073]

Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
again you pick through my words to make your point,
i said i removed the plastic engine covers, shortened my oil change interval and use slightly heavier oil
wow, pay attention

tired of attempting normal conversation on here without some smart mouth to criticize every word or opinion


You can select anyone's username under the User List tab and "Ignore User' and their posts are hidden...

thank you....done

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
mercedes 3.0 liter om642 engines with bluetec and running 229.52 spec oil are sludeging and seizing up and mercedes is doing nothing to help
Its amsoil 5w40 diesel oil for me

How will that help?

thin oil, hot running diesel, 10,000 mile oil changes= sludge
me-> 5w40 5,000 oil change, removed engine covers, = long happy life


or maybe use oil analysis to determine appropriate service life, rather than just picking an abritrary number like 5000, 10000 or whatever.