True of most Chinese imports . If they can't understand quality control they will fail in export sales .
Lexus: Made-in-China Qlty Is Not Good Enough
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One of the many issues I have with cheap labor in general is the consumer saves little to nothing on the final price. A good example is the new Silverado pickup truck. According to the parts origin window sticker, there are only 40% domestic parts in the truck. 51% come from Mexico, but the truck sells for more than it's ever sold for. My 2012 has 65% and the model made until 2007 had 90%. Prices keep going up as American content goes down.
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
With the Chinese this "quality" issue covers a lot of ground, indeed, in many cases, it is code for business-cultural problems.
I speak in terms of business practice, call it business integrity. It is not politic for the man from Toyota (or from a lot of other places) to say out loud that the simple fact is that the Chinese, by and large, can not be trusted to maintain practices that they say they will maintain.
You will have a business agreement with them today and it won't be interpreted the same way tomorrow. You can negotiate a contract until midnight, get an agreement down and then at 8AM the next morning the documents will have been changed to your detriment in hopes that you will miss the changes. Your proprietary processes will be passed along to their guanxi (their business and social network) to curry favor if not sold outright to some other company.
While agreeing to technical specifications drawn up by and agreed to by both parties there is a tendency to start short-cutting the quality process and production at the earliest convenient (to them) time.
And on and on. Will these shortcomings moderate over time? Maybe, even probably, but our man from Lexus knows what he's talking about. Until that "quality" issue changes, only send them you lower technology work and not your crown jewels.
Right on!
Q.
With the Chinese this "quality" issue covers a lot of ground, indeed, in many cases, it is code for business-cultural problems.
I speak in terms of business practice, call it business integrity. It is not politic for the man from Toyota (or from a lot of other places) to say out loud that the simple fact is that the Chinese, by and large, can not be trusted to maintain practices that they say they will maintain.
You will have a business agreement with them today and it won't be interpreted the same way tomorrow. You can negotiate a contract until midnight, get an agreement down and then at 8AM the next morning the documents will have been changed to your detriment in hopes that you will miss the changes. Your proprietary processes will be passed along to their guanxi (their business and social network) to curry favor if not sold outright to some other company.
While agreeing to technical specifications drawn up by and agreed to by both parties there is a tendency to start short-cutting the quality process and production at the earliest convenient (to them) time.
And on and on. Will these shortcomings moderate over time? Maybe, even probably, but our man from Lexus knows what he's talking about. Until that "quality" issue changes, only send them you lower technology work and not your crown jewels.
Right on!
Q.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: bruno
True of most Chinese imports . If they can't understand quality control they will fail in export sales .
They are doing pretty good now the mass consumers do not care about quality.
Nope, that is why manufactures and their consulting companies would love to have people believe, it is NOT true.
Originally Posted By: bruno
True of most Chinese imports . If they can't understand quality control they will fail in export sales .
They are doing pretty good now the mass consumers do not care about quality.
Nope, that is why manufactures and their consulting companies would love to have people believe, it is NOT true.
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Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
With the Chinese this "quality" issue covers a lot of ground, indeed, in many cases, it is code for business-cultural problems.
I speak in terms of business practice, call it business integrity. It is not politic for the man from Toyota (or from a lot of other places) to say out loud that the simple fact is that the Chinese, by and large, can not be trusted to maintain practices that they say they will maintain.
You will have a business agreement with them today and it won't be interpreted the same way tomorrow. You can negotiate a contract until midnight, get an agreement down and then at 8AM the next morning the documents will have been changed to your detriment in hopes that you will miss the changes. Your proprietary processes will be passed along to their guanxi (their business and social network) to curry favor if not sold outright to some other company.
While agreeing to technical specifications drawn up by and agreed to by both parties there is a tendency to start short-cutting the quality process and production at the earliest convenient (to them) time.
And on and on. Will these shortcomings moderate over time? Maybe, even probably, but our man from Lexus knows what he's talking about. Until that "quality" issue changes, only send them you lower technology work and not your crown jewels.
Excellent point.
With the Chinese this "quality" issue covers a lot of ground, indeed, in many cases, it is code for business-cultural problems.
I speak in terms of business practice, call it business integrity. It is not politic for the man from Toyota (or from a lot of other places) to say out loud that the simple fact is that the Chinese, by and large, can not be trusted to maintain practices that they say they will maintain.
You will have a business agreement with them today and it won't be interpreted the same way tomorrow. You can negotiate a contract until midnight, get an agreement down and then at 8AM the next morning the documents will have been changed to your detriment in hopes that you will miss the changes. Your proprietary processes will be passed along to their guanxi (their business and social network) to curry favor if not sold outright to some other company.
While agreeing to technical specifications drawn up by and agreed to by both parties there is a tendency to start short-cutting the quality process and production at the earliest convenient (to them) time.
And on and on. Will these shortcomings moderate over time? Maybe, even probably, but our man from Lexus knows what he's talking about. Until that "quality" issue changes, only send them you lower technology work and not your crown jewels.
Excellent point.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I think Toyota is more concerned with sharing their technology with the Chinese more than the quality. That's part of the deal when you want to open up the shop in China. You have to partner up with one of the state owned manufacturers and they take your technology, manufacturing processes, quality processes and other IP materials.
Most companies from the West have a false sense of security thinking that patent or IP protection laws will protect them. They will not, not in the Chinese market and not the companies owned by the state.
In essence we're giving them our knowledge and experience in exchange for the cheap labor and manufacturing costs and Toyota is fully aware of this fact.
I think that is the biggest concern, and most importantly, they haven't gotten the "reputation" of being Luxury in China yet so they rather build in Japan with their best staff instead of in China.
Europeans don't mind it because they already got the badges, and they broke down enough made in Germany to begin with (compare to Lexus).
I think Toyota is more concerned with sharing their technology with the Chinese more than the quality. That's part of the deal when you want to open up the shop in China. You have to partner up with one of the state owned manufacturers and they take your technology, manufacturing processes, quality processes and other IP materials.
Most companies from the West have a false sense of security thinking that patent or IP protection laws will protect them. They will not, not in the Chinese market and not the companies owned by the state.
In essence we're giving them our knowledge and experience in exchange for the cheap labor and manufacturing costs and Toyota is fully aware of this fact.
I think that is the biggest concern, and most importantly, they haven't gotten the "reputation" of being Luxury in China yet so they rather build in Japan with their best staff instead of in China.
Europeans don't mind it because they already got the badges, and they broke down enough made in Germany to begin with (compare to Lexus).
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
They are full of Japanese cars, they just have both badges on it, 1 domestic 1 foreign.
So you see something like Shanghai VW, Guangzhou Toyota, Beijing Saab, Changan Ford, etc.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
They are full of Japanese cars, they just have both badges on it, 1 domestic 1 foreign.
So you see something like Shanghai VW, Guangzhou Toyota, Beijing Saab, Changan Ford, etc.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I was talking to a Chinese guy at work a few years ago and was told that it was not unusual there to buy a knockoff locally made cell phone and have it break within two weeks...and, there was no question of returning it, you just bought another one. Of course, the things were dirt cheap.
I'm sure things are improving there, but people in China basically expect to be ripped off on locally made products.
The Chinese consumer market is bi polar, compare to the US being a bell curve.
Most American buy decent quality for decent price and avoid being ripped off for low price junk vs high price gouging.
Chinese consumers are either buying the cheapest good enough (because they don't know better, it is their first phone, car, TV, refrigerator, etc and because they came from a $700 / year income family farm job and now makes $300 / month in Foxconn), or they try their best to avoid the junk by paying for the highest price (especially true in baby food, they don't trust local distributor and they would pay premium to have formula air mailed from New Zealand / Netherland) and the most well known brands.
Anything in between the top and bottom ends get swept into a "who knows, it may be just junk pretending to be good deal and high quality" category.
I was talking to a Chinese guy at work a few years ago and was told that it was not unusual there to buy a knockoff locally made cell phone and have it break within two weeks...and, there was no question of returning it, you just bought another one. Of course, the things were dirt cheap.
I'm sure things are improving there, but people in China basically expect to be ripped off on locally made products.
The Chinese consumer market is bi polar, compare to the US being a bell curve.
Most American buy decent quality for decent price and avoid being ripped off for low price junk vs high price gouging.
Chinese consumers are either buying the cheapest good enough (because they don't know better, it is their first phone, car, TV, refrigerator, etc and because they came from a $700 / year income family farm job and now makes $300 / month in Foxconn), or they try their best to avoid the junk by paying for the highest price (especially true in baby food, they don't trust local distributor and they would pay premium to have formula air mailed from New Zealand / Netherland) and the most well known brands.
Anything in between the top and bottom ends get swept into a "who knows, it may be just junk pretending to be good deal and high quality" category.
Originally Posted By: CKN
Michelin has a factory in China.....
MICHELIN Group, one of the top Fortune 500 companies is the world leader in tire technology and innovation. Michelin has established more than 68 factories worldwide and its business covers more than 170 countries, has about 115,755 employees. With its fast business growth in China, Michelin has established two plants in Shanghai and Shenyang, a Research & Development Centre and head office in Shanghai as well as sales offices in Xian, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Shenyang, Shanghai and representative office in Hongkong since 1988. Till now, we count approximately 5500 employees in P.R.C.
http://www.michelin.com.cn/overseerecuiting/
Yes, and i changed the tyres at my motorcycle after 27 brand-loyal years from METZELER to Bridgestone for the first time, after Metzeler also started production in China and the new rear tyre says "Made in China". No Way!
BTW: Before, "Made In Germany" was proudly embossed on the tire sidewall, in really big letters. The new "Made in China" sign was made so small, you almost need a magnifier to read it. And the tire cost the same.
Sombody stuff his pockets full with money while playing with my life.
Michelin has a factory in China.....
MICHELIN Group, one of the top Fortune 500 companies is the world leader in tire technology and innovation. Michelin has established more than 68 factories worldwide and its business covers more than 170 countries, has about 115,755 employees. With its fast business growth in China, Michelin has established two plants in Shanghai and Shenyang, a Research & Development Centre and head office in Shanghai as well as sales offices in Xian, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Shenyang, Shanghai and representative office in Hongkong since 1988. Till now, we count approximately 5500 employees in P.R.C.
http://www.michelin.com.cn/overseerecuiting/
Yes, and i changed the tyres at my motorcycle after 27 brand-loyal years from METZELER to Bridgestone for the first time, after Metzeler also started production in China and the new rear tyre says "Made in China". No Way!
BTW: Before, "Made In Germany" was proudly embossed on the tire sidewall, in really big letters. The new "Made in China" sign was made so small, you almost need a magnifier to read it. And the tire cost the same.
Sombody stuff his pockets full with money while playing with my life.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
They are full of Japanese cars, they just have both badges on it, 1 domestic 1 foreign.
So you see something like Shanghai VW, Guangzhou Toyota, Beijing Saab, Changan Ford, etc.
Interesting.
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Japan and China do not have a good relationship, so I am not surprised by this.
This is basically the root of Toyota's problem. China is full of foreign brands but finding a Japanese brand car is rare. You will see local brands manufacturing licensed Japanese cars and trucks under local brands.
The quality of the product will be what you require it to be. Audi, BMW and Mercedes make cars in China and the quality is as expected from these brands. They also have local brands that compete on price and the quality is what is again expected.
They are full of Japanese cars, they just have both badges on it, 1 domestic 1 foreign.
So you see something like Shanghai VW, Guangzhou Toyota, Beijing Saab, Changan Ford, etc.
Interesting.
As a nation both the UK and USA have swallowed the bait of "Never mind the quality, look at the price".
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
Originally Posted By: Claud
As a nation both the UK and USA have swallowed the bait of "Never mind the quality, look at the price".
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
110%
As a nation both the UK and USA have swallowed the bait of "Never mind the quality, look at the price".
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
110%
Originally Posted By: ChristianReske
BTW: Before, "Made In Germany" was proudly embossed on the tire sidewall, in really big letters. The new "Made in China" sign was made so small, you almost need a magnifier to read it. And the tire cost the same.
They sometimes write "Made in PRC" to avoid using the word China.
BTW: Before, "Made In Germany" was proudly embossed on the tire sidewall, in really big letters. The new "Made in China" sign was made so small, you almost need a magnifier to read it. And the tire cost the same.
They sometimes write "Made in PRC" to avoid using the word China.
Originally Posted By: Claud
As a nation both the UK and USA have swallowed the bait of "Never mind the quality, look at the price".
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
The even more interesting question is who was behind the
"training" that people received to perceive things this way.
If you look at Germany, Scandinavia and some other nations they still look to buy quality and are willing to pay more for it, I wonder why that is?
As a nation both the UK and USA have swallowed the bait of "Never mind the quality, look at the price".
This is displayed by the number of Pound and Dollar stores selling junk. The public don't care if it's junk, it's cheap junk, so they buy it.
That leaves manufacturers of decent quality (high end stuff isn't much affected) products seeing their customer base disappearing, and they are going out of business.
So we are losing our manufacturing infrastructure fast, which weakens our powers every time another factory shuts its doors.
Which nations have been top dogs in modern history?, the ones with the most industrial might.
Great Britain, Germany, the Soviet union, and the USA have all been there.
Now we are watching Chinas ascendancy, to be followed by India shortly.
Claud.
The even more interesting question is who was behind the
"training" that people received to perceive things this way.
If you look at Germany, Scandinavia and some other nations they still look to buy quality and are willing to pay more for it, I wonder why that is?
It will be interesting to see how the new Volvos out of China hold up...
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
It will be interesting to see how the new Volvos out of China hold up...
dunno..but then again: chery cars sold on the outskirts of Sydney (not compliant, so cannot sold inside sydney as I recalled), started to rattle and fail in about a year or 2, ended up being the cheepest junk + death trap running along in Oz...
Q.
It will be interesting to see how the new Volvos out of China hold up...
dunno..but then again: chery cars sold on the outskirts of Sydney (not compliant, so cannot sold inside sydney as I recalled), started to rattle and fail in about a year or 2, ended up being the cheepest junk + death trap running along in Oz...
Q.
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
One of the many issues I have with cheap labor in general is the consumer saves little to nothing on the final price. A good example is the new Silverado pickup truck. According to the parts origin window sticker, there are only 40% domestic parts in the truck. 51% come from Mexico, but the truck sells for more than it's ever sold for. My 2012 has 65% and the model made until 2007 had 90%. Prices keep going up as American content goes down.
We got a BIG contract on the new 2016 Silverado. The end of production of this model is planned for 2026. That is a ten year run, quite rare when every vehicle seems to get redesigned every 5 years...
One of the many issues I have with cheap labor in general is the consumer saves little to nothing on the final price. A good example is the new Silverado pickup truck. According to the parts origin window sticker, there are only 40% domestic parts in the truck. 51% come from Mexico, but the truck sells for more than it's ever sold for. My 2012 has 65% and the model made until 2007 had 90%. Prices keep going up as American content goes down.
We got a BIG contract on the new 2016 Silverado. The end of production of this model is planned for 2026. That is a ten year run, quite rare when every vehicle seems to get redesigned every 5 years...
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China can build the finest products in the world if you pay for that level of quality. It is just too tempting to pay less for low quality. Lexus could have world class products made there and save money. I appreciate that they do not employ China today but soon they will go down that road like everyone else.
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