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Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: irv
Hater? Maybe, if that means I hate seeing people constantly getting ripped off paying a premium price for something they think is a premium/superior product, then go ahead, color me a hater, I really don't care.




Nobody is getting ripped off when they buy Mobil 1, that's just absolute nonsense.
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Really Mobil's base oils are available in many other Oil Company synthetics for five dollars less or more. In fact most of those are available at regular price cheaper than Mobil on sale and they all seem to still be staying in business?
 
Originally Posted By: nap
If Sequence IVA doesn’t translate into anything, why are we bothering with it at all.... Maybe we could save a buck and use those oils that PQIA finds from time to time to not meet API specs....

If we start with the assumptions that “UOA are worthless” and “API tests are irrelevant” then yes, there will be no inferior or superior oils.

I'm continually amazed by people who disregard engine wear test results and high wear metals in UOAs simply because those results cast a negative light on their choices/decisions.
 
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
I'm continually amazed by people who disregard engine wear test results and high wear metals in UOAs simply because those results cast a negative light on their choices/decisions.

Well, since we're talking about comparing UOAs...

What is the actual functional difference in wear over the life of an engine between an oil that shows 5ppm iron over 10k miles and an oil that shows 10ppm?

Is there a difference? Is it repeatable? Is it any more than splitting hairs?

Pick an approved oil from a reputable brand and your engine will typically outlast the car it's in. I generally don't see the point in doing UOAs on a passenger car unless you're specifically looking for a failure trend in an engine with a known weak point. Rod bearings in BMW's S62B50, for example.
 
Mobil 1 is a target due to the market share they have. I've always believed M1 has been among the top, and in some case the top, performing oil in certain areas. The IVA issue was real, for whatever reason, but that's old news. It sounds like it had to due with Katrina and supply disruption. XOM runs all the API testing in-house.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
What is the actual functional difference in wear over the life of an engine between an oil that shows 5ppm iron over 10k miles and an oil that shows 10ppm?


The question is whether it’s the 10ppm oil that should be declared “superior”?
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Well, since we're talking about comparing UOAs...

What is the actual functional difference in wear over the life of an engine between an oil that shows 5ppm iron over 10k miles and an oil that shows 10ppm?

Is there a difference? Is it repeatable? Is it any more than splitting hairs?

Pick an approved oil from a reputable brand and your engine will typically outlast the car it's in. I generally don't see the point in doing UOAs on a passenger car unless you're specifically looking for a failure trend in an engine with a known weak point. Rod bearings in BMW's S62B50, for example.

^ All of this.
 
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
What is the actual functional difference in wear over the life of an engine between an oil that shows 5ppm iron over 10k miles and an oil that shows 10ppm?

The question is whether it’s the 10ppm oil that should be declared “superior”?

Lots of variables. Maybe wear spikes to 10ppm on one oil during a 5k OCI where the other oil is 5ppm.

Double the OCI and maybe the 10ppm oil stays at 10ppm and the 5ppm oil is now at 30ppm...

Maybe an oil can be inferior to another in a specific use case - that same oil may be superior in a different case.

UOAs are for trend analysis of the machine - not for trying to split hairs between lubes.
 
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
What is the actual functional difference in wear over the life of an engine between an oil that shows 5ppm iron over 10k miles and an oil that shows 10ppm?

The question is whether it’s the 10ppm oil that should be declared “superior”?

Lots of variables. Maybe wear spikes to 10ppm on one oil during a 5k OCI where the other oil is 5ppm.

Double the OCI and maybe the 10ppm oil stays at 10ppm and the 5ppm oil is now at 30ppm...

Maybe an oil can be inferior to another in a specific use case - that same oil may be superior in a different case.

UOAs are for trend analysis of the machine - not for trying to split hairs between lubes.




Spot on roofless.
 
Also, a UOA doesn't tell you WHERE the wear metals are coming from. If you're looking at time-to-rebuild, 10 ppm from a super robust part of the engine, or from multiple iron containing parts together, isn't necessarily worse than 5 ppm from somewhere else. It might even be preferable.
 
No amount of beating around the bush can cover the fact that an explanation of the higher iron levels hasn’t yet been produced in this thread.
 
(Reportedly) from a Redline Chemist waaaaaay back in 2009:

"Unfortunately, oil analysis is not very good at distinguishing wear between different formulations. Emission spectroscopy has a particle size limit of 3 to 5 microns, which means that particles larger will not be detected. Unfortunately, most serious wear issues generate wear particles in the range of 5 - 15 microns. Oil analysis only measures about 15-20% of the particles in the oil, and changing form one formulation to another is likely to change the particle size profile. Usually formulations with more antiwear additive will more aggressively react with the metal surface and when rubbing occurs will produce smaller particles. Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower. There are other techniques such as ferrography, which looks at the wear particles under a microscope, but now we are talking about analysis many times more expensive than spectrochemical analysis. The oils with the better spectrochemical numbers will be much less chemically active on the metal surface, so they will be less able to handle more severe loads. There is always a trade-off between chemical wear and adhesive wear. Chemical wear is the very small particles and soluble metals which is identified in the spectrochemical analysis, while adhesive wear is many orders of magnitude greater than the chemical wear, but much is not identified in spectrochemical analysis. But if you were using spectrochemical analysis as a maintenance tool and started seeing a deviation over the baseline, then you would know something was wrong.

It is very difficult for an individual to be able to look at numbers which will conclusively determine the best formulation, you simply have to rely on the reputation of the marketer and whether you trust the marketer's technical expertise. With most of our formulations, we rely on major additive manufacturers to do the basic API sequence testing to determine criteria such as antiwear, dispersancy, cleanliness, etc. All the oil companies rely on the additive manufacturers to do the engine test work. We will take their basic package and add additional antiwear, friction modifiers, oxidation inhibitors or whatever can be safely modified to provide superior performance. Some of the bench tests such as 4-Ball can be useful, but a blind adherance to optimize with one single test will result a less-than-optimum performing lubricant. There are always trade-offs in engine oils, and we try to enhance antiwear and friction reduction at higher temperatures and loads, while trying to maintain performance at lower and normal loads and temperatures."
 
Originally Posted By: nap
No amount of beating around the bush can cover the fact that an explanation of the higher iron levels hasn’t yet been produced in this thread.

That's absolutely true. Similarly, however, no amount of beating around the bush can cover the fact that the consequences of the higher iron levels hasn't been produced in this thread.
 
So we’re back at the “UOAs and API tests are irrelevant” argument?

Fine, then show me a relevant metric by which M1 can be declared “superior”.
 
I just changed the oil in my three vehicles today: 2008 Nissan Altima, 2005 Toyota Tacoma, and 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder. All received 5w30 Mobil 1 EP with Mobil 1 oil filters, as I have done for many years.

Fortunately I found a profitable use for the three gallons of used oil I collected!

 
Originally Posted By: nap
So we’re back at the “UOAs and API tests are irrelevant” argument?

Fine, then show me a relevant metric by which M1 can be declared “superior”.


Crickets.
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Originally Posted By: nap
So we’re back at the “UOAs and API tests are irrelevant” argument?

I'm not saying that at all. For the former, I'm saying correlating wear with ppm numbers across brands and chemistries within approved lubes and appropriate intervals isn't possible. I am saying that lubricants within the same product tier and set of specifications and viscosity are functionally and completely interchangeable.

Originally Posted By: nap
Fine, then show me a relevant metric by which M1 can be declared “superior”.

I'm not saying that it is, either.
 
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Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: nap
If Sequence IVA doesn’t translate into anything, why are we bothering with it at all.... Maybe we could save a buck and use those oils that PQIA finds from time to time to not meet API specs....

If we start with the assumptions that “UOA are worthless” and “API tests are irrelevant” then yes, there will be no inferior or superior oils.


I'm continually amazed by people who disregard engine wear test results and high wear metals in UOAs simply because those results cast a negative light on their choices/decisions.


Same.
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Imagine, if you will, an off the shelf oil like say a WalMart brand or something similar that showed higher wear metal levels in it's UOAs and failed wear sequence testing, how many Mobil fans would quickly dispel it and not even run it in their lawnmowers.
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Now, take that same oil and put a Mobil sticker on it then charge a premium price for it and watch it fly off the shelves.
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Originally Posted By: nap
So we’re back at the “UOAs and API tests are irrelevant” argument?

Fine, then show me a relevant metric by which M1 can be declared “superior”.

No one is saying UOAs are irrelevant, especially not me. I gave the specific scenarios where they are useful.

M1 can't be declared superior. None can. Not with a UOA. That's the point that you're missing.
 
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