"last reliable cars" (before 'designed to break')

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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy


Its a GM and Ford thing, they don't support older models.



So they DO support "Planned Obsolescence"
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The Germans blow the American and Japanese companies out of the water when it comes to support of older models.

Heck Mercedes very often is still updating the parts on a model even after its been out of production for a decade or two. The last head gasket update for the OM603 was like 12 years after production stopped.

Its not just Mercedes either, for whatever reason the German manufactures offer parts support for their older models for just about forever.

Step 1: Make cars worth keeping
Step 2: Help people keep them
Step 3: Profit

Shame that more companies don't seem to understand this.
 
Cars become obsolete because of technology and engineering advances. Every ten years brings a huge advancement in performance, reliability, safety, fuel economy, emissions control. Sure I have a soft spot for some classics but today's cars are the greatest ever made.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
The Germans blow the American and Japanese companies out of the water when it comes to support of older models.

Heck Mercedes very often is still updating the parts on a model even after its been out of production for a decade or two. The last head gasket update for the OM603 was like 12 years after production stopped.

Its not just Mercedes either, for whatever reason the German manufactures offer parts support for their older models for just about forever.

Step 1: Make cars worth keeping
Step 2: Help people keep them
Step 3: Profit

Shame that more companies don't seem to understand this.


A few more are coming on board like BMW and VW actually in Germany and Europe VW actually have an order system where you can get parts for classic cars which includes everything from the original Beetle to the Golf and many more direct from the factory.
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
OTOH you can walk into any Mercedes dealer and get just about any part for any car they have made since the war.


Not really. They have pretty good parts availability, but you can't even get suspension and axle parts for a 300td for example. I was just dealing with one a few months ago. Not sure which "war" you're talking about...
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Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
If it ISN'T "planned obsolescence," then explain why GM dealers do not stock and cannot order parts for vehicles over 10-12 years old?


Because dealers can't fit that many outdated part on their shelves, OEMs can't source/stock/ship that many obsolete parts through their networks, and cars that old are more likely to be serviced with aftermarket parts at independent shops?

Because dealers and OEMs both have software that analyzes which part numbers are selling the fastest?

Idk
 
They might not have it in stock, but they could get it in a few days I am sure. That isn't unreasonable IMO.

That is what the local GM dealer did for me. Didnt charge me shipping either and made it a great buy.
 
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Cars went downhill when GM killed off the Chevy Citation.
You are *&^%$#@ us right? The Citation had a poor build quality and mechanical reliability. I remember it was suppose to be the answer to the Honda Accord.
 
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Cars went downhill when GM killed off the Chevy Citation.
You are *&^%$#@ us right? The Citation had a poor build quality and mechanical reliability. I remember it was suppose to be the answer to the Honda Accord.

I liked my 2 door coupe Olds Omega Brougham. Had decent power from the 2.8L V6, the 3 speed trans always seemed to be in the right gear, rode nice. The bench seat was plush enough to drive across Canada in 3 days without getting sore. To me atleast it captured 90% of the feeling of a big boat car, but was a practical size and got decent mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
If it ISN'T "planned obsolescence," then explain why GM dealers do not stock and cannot order parts for vehicles over 10-12 years old?


Its a GM and Ford thing, they don't support older models.

OTOH you can walk into any Mercedes dealer and get just about any part for any car they have made since the war. Most of the parts are pretty fairly priced as well. Heck threw the Classic Center Mercedes will even restore or sell you a fully restored classic car. Imagine if GM was restoring GTO's and selling them...

The Germans blow the American and Japanese companies out of the water when it comes to support of older models.

Heck Mercedes very often is still updating the parts on a model even after its been out of production for a decade or two. The last head gasket update for the OM603 was like 12 years after production stopped.

Its not just Mercedes either, for whatever reason the German manufactures offer parts support for their older models for just about forever.


MB and BMW have far fewer models to support. Each historically has had a very small matrix of vehicles to support although intro of SUV's has added lots to their plate recently.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Cars went downhill when GM killed off the Chevy Citation.
You are *&^%$#@ us right? The Citation had a poor build quality and mechanical reliability. I remember it was suppose to be the answer to the Honda Accord.

I liked my 2 door coupe Olds Omega Brougham. Had decent power from the 2.8L V6, the 3 speed trans always seemed to be in the right gear, rode nice. The bench seat was plush enough to drive across Canada in 3 days without getting sore. To me atleast it captured 90% of the feeling of a big boat car, but was a practical size and got decent mileage.


A 3-speed trans is rarely in the wrong gear but it's almost never in the right gear, either
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"I'm in a minority of drivers that doesn't mind driving a car for 30 years or putting 400,000 miles on it and if you are not in that minority you probably don't have any care for the topic. I'm just wanting to hear from those who actually do have a care for the topic."

THIS IS ME. I'm quite content with what I'm driving. An automobile is no different in purpose than a washing machine. They're both appliances. All a car is good for is going from point A to point B. I want wheel bearings, water pumps and power steering pumps, radiators, engines and transmissions, etc. to last half a million miles; or at least be rebuildable.

A few years ago, I forgot what (plastic) part I needed for my wife's car, but the local dealer suggested a salvage yard. I took my young teen aged son with me on a Saturday morning to a junkyard...I was STUNNED that MOST of the "junk" vehicles had fewer miles on them and were newer than what I was driving. We truly live in a throw away society.
 
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
"I'm in a minority of drivers that doesn't mind driving a car for 30 years or putting 400,000 miles on it and if you are not in that minority you probably don't have any care for the topic. I'm just wanting to hear from those who actually do have a care for the topic."

THIS IS ME. I'm quite content with what I'm driving. An automobile is no different in purpose than a washing machine. They're both appliances. All a car is good for is going from point A to point B. I want wheel bearings, water pumps and power steering pumps, radiators, engines and transmissions, etc. to last half a million miles; or at least be rebuildable.

A few years ago, I forgot what (plastic) part I needed for my wife's car, but the local dealer suggested a salvage yard. I took my young teen aged son with me on a Saturday morning to a junkyard...I was STUNNED that MOST of the "junk" vehicles had fewer miles on them and were newer than what I was driving. We truly live in a throw away society.


I rarely replace vehicles simply because I want something new. I put 309K on a Chevy Bel Air before the transmission gave out. My last Corolla went 295K before the engine ended up with a bad valve, and my current Corolla has 261K on it and I plan on driving it until it croaks as well. My wife's minivan, an '03 Mazda MPV just turned 100K and is perfect mechanically, but we will need to replace it before too long because it's starting to rust pretty badly, and because parts are becoming hard to find for it. I would say we get our money's worth from our vehicles, but I'm with ya...we too would keep our vehicles much longer if it were more feasible to do so...
 
I'm a fan of OBD-1 era vehicles.
I'm not comfortable with carburetors, but maybe if I had one I'd get used to it. Older carbed setups might be simpler, but I think the later carbed setups got pretty complicated with all the emissions controls they had to keep up with, increasing the number of little mechanical widgets.

I prefer early EFI systems, but only up until the start of OBD-2 (which IMO is when things got unduly complicated).
I think throttle body injection is probably the simplest and most reliable setup you could ever have, but it's less efficient and more difficult to pass emissions, so in that sense MPFI is preferable.

Iron cylinder heads. Aluminum heads make more horsepower but they are fragile. In an overheat, aluminum heads are just about guaranteed to warp or crack. Iron is much more durable, not invincible, but durable.
Aluminum heads on an iron block are also more prone to blowing gaskets due to differences in thermal expansion of the 2 surfaces. Some engines are more prone to it than others, but it's a repeated strain on the gasket every time you thermal cycle it.
Personally I don't think aluminum engines belong in most vehicles other than sports cars. Iron makes more sense from a practicality standpoint, but horsepower sells, and CAFE is a factor as well.

Early EFI cars are computer controlled, but the computer controls are quite simple compared to the OBD-2 era. As such, they are easier to understand and to diagnose, and there's a lot less to go wrong in the first place.
My GM from 1986 is easy to keep running. A close relative has a GM from 1997, and it's become a nightmare. It has over 200K miles, which is a full life I suppose, but I wish I could understand that car and help fix it to run properly.

We spent nearly a year (and a lot of money) fighting with an intermittent ignition problem on that car. I had an ignition fault on my 1986 2.8L and fixed it in 30 minutes. The ignition system on a late 90s 3800 is way more complicated than it needs to be and there is no shortage of people struggling with them.

My 86 is driven daily, it's more reliable than many cars half it's age. I had to replace some parts here and there, mostly in the first couple years I had the car, but it's not difficult or expensive. Parts are easy to get. GM made millions of transverse 2.8L V6 cars, and they use mostly the same parts. There's the occasional unique part that's more expensive, but by expensive I mean "still costs less than it would on a new car".

Every area and subsystem of an OBD-1 car is dramatically simpler than the same system on a newer car. Before long you can become an expert on your vehicle and fix it with ease. I value the self reliance that comes from that.

On OBD-2 era vehicles, there's so much interconnected junk in those cars that working on them can make you want to gouge your eyes out, and it seems like there's always something else going wrong. Some are worse than others, of course, but they're all overly complicated.

Most OBD-1 era vehicles are thoroughly documented nowadays. Often you can get a factory service manual for little money. Every little quirk has been discovered, and other owners have come up with good rework procedures that have been posted online.

In many cases, the ECM programming has also been reverse engineered. With the relative simplicity of old ECMs, it was bound to happen.
Using freely available software, you can plug a laptop into it and watch the sensors as the car runs. Using other freely available software, you can tweak a custom chip if you're so inclined. This was useful to me when I found that my injectors weren't original to the car, and it needed some tweaking to fix an idle problem. It has also allowed changing the behavior of the TCC lockup to personal preference.
To retune a modern car would require expensive equipment and software, likely built on proprietary information that isn't openly available or discussed.


I guess I'll stop rambling. Point is, I personally believe OBD-1 to be the sweet spot era of cars that are still of practical size and economy but can also be kept running long after their expiration date without extraordinary difficulty or expense - unless rust is a problem in your area. Rust sadly makes it impossible to keep old cars sometimes.
 
There are OBD 2 era cars that are easier to work on honestly. The 3.1 GM v6 is much less repair friendly and more fragile than the 3100 that succeeded it...just one example.
 
Designed service life started when Henry Ford started scouring the wrecking yards to figure out what parts didn't break or wear out on his cars so they could be built slightly cheaper. He figured there was no use in having half the car hold up when the important parts started to break.
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I prefer early OBD-2 vehicles. Still able to give usable diagnostic information while being easy to repair yourself.


Totally agreed.

Detailed information of all the basic critical systems. This is before multiplexed systems became common with CANBUS versions of OBDII.
 
With the coming of these allegedly more complicated cars made today also comes a greatly increased tribal knowledge through the internet. When my Corolla threw an engine code, some quick research online pointed me to what to change out. While the code indicated something with the cat, I changed out the O2 sensors and $110 later, the code was gone and things were back to normal.

Not sure what you guys find so hard to repair in modern cars. I attribute any troubles in fixing my car to my skill set, not the cars complexity.
 
VIN-tied modules kinda chap my rear. Can't get a "same calibration number" from the junkyard and have it work. If the original modules lasted, this wouldn't matter, of course.
 
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