Land Rover Td5 cylinder balance

bismillah

bismillah

Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
153
Location
Milano (Italy)
Hi everyone, I have a problem with my 2006 Land Rover Defender Td5.

About a year ago I had an injector failure (on the 5, at the electrical part) which I replaced with one sold used but working (now on the 3) the cause probably due to dirt because I found the diesel filter full.

With the occasion I changed washers and orings to all injectors.

I should mention that in reassembling the injectors I was very careful to adjust the injector clearance by going back one full turn as mentioned in workshop manual.

Before the failure the engine always ran well with a nice sound.

After replacing the faulty injector the engine immediately ran, always started immediately, no drop in performance. I have already run about 5k km but the sound make me think it is not at the top. I don't know how to explain it but the sound is not healthy.

This afternoon I checked the cylinder balance using a diagnostic tool. These are the results.

I start the engine, let it slowly warm up. Once I reach the opening temperature of the thermostat I stop I read these values:

- Idle

Cylinder 1: -3 -2 -3 -1 +2 +3 +1 +3
Cylinder 2: -11 -10 -12 -13 -7 -8 -6 -10
Cylinder 3: +13 +10 +12 +16 +12 +15 +12 +17 +16 +17 +15 +16
Cylinder 4: -4 -3 -6 -5 -11 -10 -11 -8 -5 -9 -10 -9 -11 -5
Cylinder 5: +4 +3 -1 0 -1 0 +3 +4 +2

- Pressing the accelerator at 1500 - 2500 and 3000 rpm

Cylinder 1: -3 -1 -3 0
Cylinder 2: 0 -1 +2
Cylinder 3: +2 0 +2 -2 -1
Cylinder 4: 0 +2 0 +2 +1 0
Cylinder 5: -3 +2 +3 -1 +3 0


- After doing a piece of highway I check the cylinder balance again in idle and read these values:

Cylinder 1: -13 -12 -18 -13 -17 -16 -12 -9 -8
Cylinder 2: -4 -9 -14 -11 -14 -9 -13
Cylinder 3: +4 -1 +1 +5 +2 +5
Cylinder 4: +12 +8 +13 +12 +6 +9
Cylinder 5: +12 +14 +11 +13 +14 +12 +16 +17 +13


This is the situation.

What do you guys think?

If you notice at the beginning all cylinders have "acceptable" values except 3 (the one bought used) and then the situation is reversed?

Could this be the fault of the injector bought used but working? If it was not working properly I should have performance drops or smoke. Actually if it weren't for the sound not being round and those balancing values of the injectors the car would be perfect. It runs, it starts, it doesn't smoke....

I have already done 5k km. I have had no oil level increase.

If it were the injector wiring, it wouldn't give me such a constant problem without starting problems or performance drops.

In short, it seems that at idle the engine turns badly but without having differences in performance

What would you guys do?
 
my educated guess would be that your new injectior is leaking when it's cold, and the old injectors are leaking when it's hot.
 
okay, so it's probably not temperature dependant unless the coolant warms up faster than the injectors. if you repeat your cylinder balance test multiple times do you get similar results every time?
 
dumkid said:
okay, so it's probably not temperature dependant unless the coolant warms up faster than the injectors. if you repeat your cylinder balance test multiple times do you get similar results every time?
Click to expand...
Yes, of course. If I carry the diagnostic with me I always have those values.
 
Audiman said:
Get the injectors tested professionally. Then you know what you’ve got and either replace injectors with issues or if all ok you have a issue elsewhere
Click to expand...
Here in Italy, I haven't found someone who can thoroughly test the pump injectors yet.

When I took them apart I went across town to try them out but they didn't give me any papers, just told me they were ok except one that was faulty. But I doubt they did fine tests checking that the working ones were within the tolerances for example.
 
bismillah said:
Here in Italy, I haven't found someone who can thoroughly test the pump injectors yet.

When I took them apart I went across town to try them out but they didn't give me any papers, just told me they were ok except one that was faulty. But I doubt they did fine tests checking that the working ones were within the tolerances for example.
Click to expand...
Find someone who specialises in VAG PD injectors.
 
bismillah said:
Hi everyone, I have a problem with my 2006 Land Rover Defender Td5.

About a year ago I had an injector failure (on the 5, at the electrical part) which I replaced with one sold used but working (now on the 3) the cause probably due to dirt because I found the diesel filter full.

With the occasion I changed washers and orings to all injectors.

I should mention that in reassembling the injectors I was very careful to adjust the injector clearance by going back one full turn as mentioned in workshop manual.

Before the failure the engine always ran well with a nice sound.

After replacing the faulty injector the engine immediately ran, always started immediately, no drop in performance. I have already run about 5k km but the sound make me think it is not at the top. I don't know how to explain it but the sound is not healthy.

This afternoon I checked the cylinder balance using a diagnostic tool. These are the results.

I start the engine, let it slowly warm up. Once I reach the opening temperature of the thermostat I stop I read these values:

- Idle

Cylinder 1: -3 -2 -3 -1 +2 +3 +1 +3
Cylinder 2: -11 -10 -12 -13 -7 -8 -6 -10
Cylinder 3: +13 +10 +12 +16 +12 +15 +12 +17 +16 +17 +15 +16
Cylinder 4: -4 -3 -6 -5 -11 -10 -11 -8 -5 -9 -10 -9 -11 -5
Cylinder 5: +4 +3 -1 0 -1 0 +3 +4 +2

- Pressing the accelerator at 1500 - 2500 and 3000 rpm

Cylinder 1: -3 -1 -3 0
Cylinder 2: 0 -1 +2
Cylinder 3: +2 0 +2 -2 -1
Cylinder 4: 0 +2 0 +2 +1 0
Cylinder 5: -3 +2 +3 -1 +3 0


- After doing a piece of highway I check the cylinder balance again in idle and read these values:

Cylinder 1: -13 -12 -18 -13 -17 -16 -12 -9 -8
Cylinder 2: -4 -9 -14 -11 -14 -9 -13
Cylinder 3: +4 -1 +1 +5 +2 +5
Cylinder 4: +12 +8 +13 +12 +6 +9
Cylinder 5: +12 +14 +11 +13 +14 +12 +16 +17 +13


This is the situation.

What do you guys think?

If you notice at the beginning all cylinders have "acceptable" values except 3 (the one bought used) and then the situation is reversed?

Could this be the fault of the injector bought used but working? If it was not working properly I should have performance drops or smoke. Actually if it weren't for the sound not being round and those balancing values of the injectors the car would be perfect. It runs, it starts, it doesn't smoke....

I have already done 5k km. I have had no oil level increase.

If it were the injector wiring, it wouldn't give me such a constant problem without starting problems or performance drops.

In short, it seems that at idle the engine turns badly but without having differences in performance

What would you guys do?
Click to expand...
What do the numbers actually mean? What are all the + and - meaning in real terms?

You opened the injector that you bought? When you say injector clearance, do you mean shimming the insides to set pop pressure?

It seems to me that either something isn’t set right to open in the right conditions, and/or a nozzle is bad. Nozzles don’t last forever. If the nozzle is different than the other injectors, it can flow and spray different.

I mess with mechanical IDI diesels, but aside from some control, I’m not sure the fundamentals are all that different. But help me to understand what the numbers mean.
 
JHZR2 said:
What do the numbers actually mean? What are all the + and - meaning in real terms?
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know what precisely that value measures. I'm not that technical. I know that years ago I had checked that value and it was all cylinders around 0.
After the breakdown it didn't occur to me to check it right away but the engine noise at idle (when I stop at a stop sign) hasn't returned to what it used to be and looking at that value I have confirmation that something is not working properly.
If I had to trust only my driving sensations I would say it is perfect because it doesn't smoke, it performs well, I don't notice any loss of power or torque, never an ignition problem...



This video is from a Discovery but the engine is the same as well as the diagostic instrument
 
JHZR2 said:
You opened the injector that you bought? When you say injector clearance, do you mean shimming the insides to set pop pressure?
Click to expand...
Of course, I didn't venture to open any injectors....

When I talk about injector clearance, I'm talking about this:

Take the rocker cover off.
You wll see the rockers and shaft that push down the injectors.
You need to get each injector on its full down stroke (cam lobe fully up ).
To do this you can either turn the crank nut, or rock the car, in gear, untill the cam lobe is up.
Now, when then injector is fully compressed, slacken off the adjuster lock nut and, with a flat screwdriver, turn the adjuster screw " in " untill you feel resistance. This is the injector, " bottoming out ".
Once youve done this, you just turn the screw back ONE FULL TURN, and lock it back off.
Repeat for all five.
 
GSCJR said:
Quest' azienda sembra di essere attrezzato:

Pompista diesel Milano - Revisione iniettori - Revisione pompe | AUTODIESEL SNC di Gassa Osvaldo

Autodiesel nasce nel 1987 su iniziativa di Gassa Osvaldo che ha sempre posto particolare attenzione sull’innovazione tecnologica e sulla cura della clientela, tanto da intraprendere continui e mirati investimenti nelle risorse tecnologiche che le consentono di offrire un servizio più completo ed...
www.autodieselbcs.com
Click to expand...
I tried to call them but they replied that they are unable to test my injectors.
 
Last edited:
Audiman said:
Get the injectors tested professionally. Then you know what you’ve got and either replace injectors with issues or if all ok you have a issue elsewhere
Click to expand...
It is not that easy. I remember a year ago when I was holding all five injectors, I had called several places . Most of them were not able to test my injectors. Others had definitely old and obsolete machines. Pump injectors were used years ago in trucks.

I remember one place had tested my injectors (I was there) but it was a very superficial test for example if it made a ticking sound and if it sputtered.

But I have no doubt that my injectors do spray but maybe not as much as they should.

In short, between not working and working perfectly there is a middle of the sea
 
bismillah said:
It is not that easy. I remember a year ago when I was holding all five injectors, I had called several places . Most of them were not able to test my injectors. Others had definitely old and obsolete machines. Pump injectors were used years ago in trucks.

I remember one place had tested my injectors (I was there) but it was a very superficial test for example if it made a ticking sound and if it sputtered.

But I have no doubt that my injectors do spray but maybe not as much as they should.

In short, between not working and working perfectly there is a middle of the sea
Click to expand...
It’s been a while but I seem to remember something about green and red coded injectors. is the replacement one definitely the correct part? I would advise sending the injectors to the UK for testing. You may find they all need replacement tips or just replace the full unit. Can you not get new parts rather than second hand.
 
Audiman said:
It’s been a while but I seem to remember something about green and red coded injectors. is the replacement one definitely the correct part? I would advise sending the injectors to the UK for testing. You may find they all need replacement tips or just replace the full unit. Can you not get new parts rather than second hand.
Click to expand...
The ones with the blue spring are for the euro 2 engine. Mine is later, euro 3 and i have all the green springs

MSC000030 -BEBE2A01001​

 
Audiman said:
Can you get new injectors? The constantly changing injector values is like the ECU is trying but failing to compensate.
Click to expand...
Sure, paying handsomely...

I could try swapping two injectors and see if the values stay the same or follow the position where the injector goes.

Honestly, I can admit that with dirty diesel an injector could have failed but that all of them are broken is objectively unlikely.
Counting the fact that the engine restarted immediately after replacing the faulty injector, that it has never had problems starting, has never smoked, has never lost power and that in this year and 5k km the situation has not minimally modified...
 
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