Korean Conflict

[Nickdfresh]

Why in the the world does anyone think the Chinese would want to defend this regime unless they absolutely had too. Here's an interesting article with official speculations derived from Wikileaks that says that the Chinese and U.S. officials share intelligence and discuss the DPRK regime in private...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40422090/ns/us_news-security

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
The problem is that near China or N.K. you aren't fighting their navy, your fighting their air force...

What exactly does the DPRK have in their air arsenal?

The MiG-21 Fishbed? A good plane in it's day but if you are going after one F-15, you had better bring a whole squadron of MiG-21s

If you are going after a single Raptor, you had better bring your whole air force. You won't see the Raptor until it's weapon bay doors are open....then it is too late. Beware of Raptors with open weapon bay doors.


They have some MIG-29s, which according to a German Luftwaffe pilot who flew MIG's inherited from the former East German Air Force, were very capable of downing F-15s and F-16s --if they got in close.

That being said, the Northern pilots probably hardly fly relative to U.S. and ROK pilots due to fuel shortages...

Quote:
I don't even know what kind of gunships they have....Maybe Hind-Ds? Vs the AH-64 Apache Longbow? Neither is designed for air to air, but my money is on the Apache. I personally know an old UH-1C/AH-1G/AH-1S pilot that swears he could take on any Hind D anytime in an AH-1S Cobra. I believe him.


I believe they have Hind-Ds, They also have, in one of the more interesting intelligence coups of the 20th century, U.S. made Hughes 500 Defenders (the same chopper that is used by U.S. special operations that's derived from the OH-6, but adapted with advanced avionics and anti-tank capability). They were procured in the 1980s using a phony front company fraudulently claiming they were going to then West Germany IIRC. But again, severe shortages may have marginalized their air threat...

Quote:
Not too worried about their air defense. They were still using ZSU 57-2s last I checked. They fire on Blackhawks periodically. To the best of my knowledge, they still haven't hit one.

Historically, the most dangerous aspect of MiG Alley was the Soviet pilots. Not the Chinese and certainly not the North Koreans


Their air defenses are probably what worries the U.S. and South Korea the most. I believe they have advanced Russian/Chinese made SAMs...

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh

Their air defenses are probably what worries the U.S. and South Korea the most. I believe they have advanced Russian/Chinese made SAMs...

I would guess they would get a very heavy dose of Tomahawk/Cruise missiles first.

 

[Propflux01]

I don't think it matters much about their air force or the navy. China already has a missile in testing stage capable of taking out the biggest Carrier we have with one hit. The Chinese will fund NK regime because it does not want a US military base that close to its border. Plus the fact the US cannot sustain a war because simply put, we don't have the money to do it. And with China buying our debt, I find it hard they would continue to fund the US with their money. Add that to the former poster who gave the statistics about the amount of soldiers china can supply VS what we could. Like Vietnam, and the original Korean war, both were stalemates because of china's backing of each country. And after the world has seen how we wage wars in the middle east, well, I don't think they are worried to terribly much...

I dont see anything conflict-wise coming out of this. Both side have too much to lose, and too many odds against them. It will fade, much like the sinking of that SK carrier ship.

 

[OVERKILL]

Some interesting notes regarding volume vs experience in the history books.... One needs to look no further than the death rates between German and Russian troops to understand that a well-trained group of soldiers can wreak far greater damage than one would expect upon groups of soldiers many times their number.

After selling our souls to China for the bottom-line..... Owning the US via debt. It puts one in a very awkward position having to consider the prospect of armed conflict with our debtor, or their fronts.

 

[oilboy123]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11868641

 

[Pablo]

Oilboy123 - that TRUTH will win this "war" more than anything.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Oilboy123 - that TRUTH will win this "war" more than anything.
How often do you see cows in the field attacking g their masters. Other than "Animal Farm"...not so much. They may crumble bc of the system. But don't count on the Chattel to revolt.

Where has it happened in modern history? (In a tightly controlled organized dictatorship)

 

[greenaccord02]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Oilboy123 - that TRUTH will win this "war" more than anything.
How often do you see cows in the field attacking g their masters. Other than "Animal Farm"...not so much. They may crumble bc of the system. But don't count on the Chattel to revolt.

Where has it happened in modern history? (In a tightly controlled organized dictatorship)


Russia in 1991. After Gorbechev instituted slightly more democratic policy in the hopes of revitalizing the country the whole thing fell apart. Times had been tough for years, but nobody had thought it could be changed until a little instability caused people to realize that change was a real possibility. From the local level up, the people revolted. The party leaders weren't prepared to deal with the people's anger at the system. Before anyone knew what was happening the Russian flag was flying over the Kremlin and the country turned into the mess it is today. It only took 4 months.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: greenaccord02

Russia in 1991.

The Soviet Union financially collapsed And... Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union agreed to give up its monopoly of power. That led to freer elections in the individual republics.

Not the same scenario that could possibly occur in NK (IMHO)

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Russia in 1991.


Not quiet true. You forgot one thing. The coup. The only reason Gorbachev lost the power was Yeltsin, another Communist apparatchik. Yeltsin was the nominal head of the RSFSR. Fortunately for him, Moscow military garrison decided to support Gorbachev imprisoned in dacha in Crimea.
KGB had and still has several infantry divisions (as well as tank Tamanskaya division) under its control. KGB head (I do not remember who it was after Andropov, it's been too many years), the coup supporter, could not bring them to bear on the Moscow fast enough. By then the rest of the military had thrown their support behind Yeltsin and Gorbachev.

By the time Gorbachev was freed by Yeltsin, RSFSR declared its independence from the Soviet union (Yeltsin tasted the power and wanted to keep it). The rest of the 14 Soviet republics soon followed his lead.

As far as general populace rebelling... BTRs and BMPs were in all of the major intersection in the cities. AK-74s has real, live ammo. All communication with outside was monitored, as usual, but this time around if you mentioned certain trigger words (tank, Gorbachev, coup, etc), phone lines went immediately dead.

PS I was there.

PPS Most Westerners do not understand the level of control KGB had over the people.
There was a Navy uprising in Sevastopol in 1976, IIRC that was put down brutally by KGB forces. Most people did not hear about until 1992.
You had to get a permission from KGB to buy a copier (afraid of anti-government publications), or to get a passport and to travel outside the country! Gorbachev changed nothing of that.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh


, ...They also have, in one of the more interesting intelligence coups of the 20th century, U.S. made Hughes 500 Defenders (the same chopper that is used by U.S. special operations that's derived from the OH-6, but adapted with advanced avionics and anti-tank capability). They were procured in the 1980s using a phony front company fraudulently claiming they were going to then West Germany IIRC. But again, severe shortages may have marginalized their air threat....


Like the Iranians and thier F-14 Tomcats?
They have them. Every once in awhile someone well connected enough can turn traitor on our nation get parts for them. But for the most part, the mighty Iranian Tomcats just collect dust.

 

[SteveSRT8]

They have poorly trained pilots, no spare parts, no support like AWACs, and on and on...

The entire Iranian air force would last a few hours against us.

I seriously think the NK could give us a better fight, but would be out of the sky in a few days.

 

[rshaw125]

South Korea has over twice the population of the North and their economy is 40 times larger. There is not a reason I can think of for the US to have any troops there.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
South Korea has over twice the population of the North and their economy is 40 times larger. There is not a reason I can think of for the US to have any troops there.


Because the ROK backs us on everything.

Who was with us in Vietnam? The Republic of Korea. (and a few Aussies....the communists didn't like us but they genuinely feared the ROKs and Aussies)

They've had our collective backs a lot. We got thier's on this.

And I'm certain that if the Republic of Korea asked the US military to pack up and leave we would. We might fuss a bit about it but we would.

 

[Shannow]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a674cb64-fc45-11df-a9c5-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz16nqKpEac

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Oilboy123 - that TRUTH will win this "war" more than anything.
How often do you see cows in the field attacking g their masters. Other than "Animal Farm"...not so much. They may crumble bc of the system. But don't count on the Chattel to revolt.

Where has it happened in modern history? (In a tightly controlled organized dictatorship)


I was not counting on the peasants to be revolting. We all know wars are no longer won with munitions. Oh they help in a pinch and it's the ONLY way to win a battle, but we would not "win" unless the world sees a real need....faces like that girl will win....the hearts and minds....just saying.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
DO NOT underestimate the Chinese navy. Their technology isn't that far behind ours-

How many Super Carriers have the Chinese?
Ans: Zero We have 11

How many modern Fast Attack subs have the Chinese?
Ans: None (We have 50+)

Compared to you Navy they are Thread bare. They can't even begin to project Naval Global Power. Yes they could sink some of our ships. I don't think they are ready for WWIII just yet.
We still feel the failure of Korea,Viet Nam,Desert Storm 1 and present, Afganistan and the rest of the middle east victory doesn't seem like a sure bet.

 

[expat]

"faces like that girl will win....the hearts and minds....just saying."


Unfortunately, for her. it's not a caucasian face,
China?
I don't know.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Russia in 1991.


Not quiet true. You forgot one thing. The coup. The only reason Gorbachev lost the power was Yeltsin, another Communist apparatchik. Yeltsin was the nominal head of the RSFSR. Fortunately for him, Moscow military garrison decided to support Gorbachev imprisoned in dacha in Crimea.
KGB had and still has several infantry divisions (as well as tank Tamanskaya division) under its control. KGB head (I do not remember who it was after Andropov, it's been too many years), the coup supporter, could not bring them to bear on the Moscow fast enough. By then the rest of the military had thrown their support behind Yeltsin and Gorbachev.

By the time Gorbachev was freed by Yeltsin, RSFSR declared its independence from the Soviet union (Yeltsin tasted the power and wanted to keep it). The rest of the 14 Soviet republics soon followed his lead.

As far as general populace rebelling... BTRs and BMPs were in all of the major intersection in the cities. AK-74s has real, live ammo. All communication with outside was monitored, as usual, but this time around if you mentioned certain trigger words (tank, Gorbachev, coup, etc), phone lines went immediately dead.

PS I was there.

PPS Most Westerners do not understand the level of control KGB had over the people.
There was a Navy uprising in Sevastopol in 1976, IIRC that was put down brutally by KGB forces. Most people did not hear about until 1992.
You had to get a permission from KGB to buy a copier (afraid of anti-government publications), or to get a passport and to travel outside the country! Gorbachev changed nothing of that.
I agree, we bailed out the USSR "again" and they still have the same government. The people here are so easy to fool.