Any prewar car fans hear? A while back I attended a car show in Chicago with a presentation for Avion Voisin (my most favorite car maker), and on almost all the car Gabriel Voisin made, he used sleeve valve engines. They were so smooth and quiet and powerful, yet the valves leaked so much oil, so much in fact that the exhaust smoke made the car look like it was a 2-stroke engine. I was curious what some of you may think of what kind of oil was used in these engines. I'm guessing something thick to help seal the valves, and lower smoke. And the cars were mainly used in Southern France, a place unaware of snow... any ideas?
Knight Sleeve Valve engine oil
- Thread starter 79sunrunner
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Originally Posted By: The Book of the Motor Car, Rankine Kennedy CE, (pre 1925)
Oil users who purchase on a larges scale for hundreds of engines do so on a specification, and samples taken at random from every consignment of oils are tested by an expert. In this way, they get what they pay for, an oil fit for their purpose in the highest degree.
The cost of an oil is no criterion of its superiority for a given purpose.An oil at one shilling per gallon may prove superior to an oil at three shillings for some particular purpose.
The owner ofone or two cars cannot afford to test the oils brought in. Hence many of them purchase their oils on the recommendation of their car makers.
On this subject it may be of service to quote the well-known De Dion firm's information for their clients on this subject. Every shilling spent on oil and grease intelligently applied may almost be said to save five shillings which would eventually have to be spent upon renewals or replacements of worn parts, were the car concerned inefficiently, inadequately, or casually lubricated.
In this connection, the importance of using only first class lubricants cannot be overstated. A really satisfactory oil was settled upon only after upwards of 300 samples, among them some of the most widely known refineries in the world, had been tested, both in the chemical laboratories and in actual use.
When all the oils sampled had been rejected, the company decided that it was necessary to have an oil blended to their own formula.
It is a many-purpose lubricant, equally efficient for the engine, gearbox, differential, or (with the exception of the few movements lubricated by means of the grease pump) any other parts of the chassis.
It has an abnormally high flash point, has great viscosity, and is absolutely free from constituents which can harm the bearings to which it is applied. The discontinuance of its use has been proved to decrease the efficiency of an engine by no less than 33 percent. It is equally satisfactory - it would appear - with any engines, but, beyond doubt, no other oil, of however high price, gives anything like so good results with the De Dion Bouton engine
Oil users who purchase on a larges scale for hundreds of engines do so on a specification, and samples taken at random from every consignment of oils are tested by an expert. In this way, they get what they pay for, an oil fit for their purpose in the highest degree.
The cost of an oil is no criterion of its superiority for a given purpose.An oil at one shilling per gallon may prove superior to an oil at three shillings for some particular purpose.
The owner ofone or two cars cannot afford to test the oils brought in. Hence many of them purchase their oils on the recommendation of their car makers.
On this subject it may be of service to quote the well-known De Dion firm's information for their clients on this subject. Every shilling spent on oil and grease intelligently applied may almost be said to save five shillings which would eventually have to be spent upon renewals or replacements of worn parts, were the car concerned inefficiently, inadequately, or casually lubricated.
In this connection, the importance of using only first class lubricants cannot be overstated. A really satisfactory oil was settled upon only after upwards of 300 samples, among them some of the most widely known refineries in the world, had been tested, both in the chemical laboratories and in actual use.
When all the oils sampled had been rejected, the company decided that it was necessary to have an oil blended to their own formula.
It is a many-purpose lubricant, equally efficient for the engine, gearbox, differential, or (with the exception of the few movements lubricated by means of the grease pump) any other parts of the chassis.
It has an abnormally high flash point, has great viscosity, and is absolutely free from constituents which can harm the bearings to which it is applied. The discontinuance of its use has been proved to decrease the efficiency of an engine by no less than 33 percent. It is equally satisfactory - it would appear - with any engines, but, beyond doubt, no other oil, of however high price, gives anything like so good results with the De Dion Bouton engine
The most important criterion for me would be preventing wear in the sleeve valves/cylinder liners. An HDEO in 15w40 would be effective in that and cheap enough to use and change often.
Actually Astro, have just finished reading the section in the previously quoted book about sleeve valve engines, and to avoid typing the whole lot, I'll paraphrase to a greater or lesser degree...bear in mind that additives were rare(ish) in the oils (*) at the time.
The sleeve valve has both an axial and a rotational component which
Quote:
may be likened to screwing a plug into plain hole, where, by twisting the plug round, and at the same time, pushing it in, it can be entered with comparative ease. On account of the twisting motion , which reduces the resistance, the sleeve valve never comes to rest, but is continually in motion
The continual movement
Quote:
which allows of the sleeve ascending and descending via different paths, provides a natural lubricating motion, spreading the oil over the entire surfaces to which the sleeve comes into contact. It is impossible for the sleeve to sieze, as even if the lubricating oil were cut off entirely, the first thing to seize would be a piston or bearing
Apparently sleeve seizure was extremely uncommon, and sleeve/piston replacement didn't require block work.
(*) from "The High Speed Internal-Combustion Engine" by Sir Harry Ricardo, 1931
The sleeve valve has both an axial and a rotational component which
Quote:
may be likened to screwing a plug into plain hole, where, by twisting the plug round, and at the same time, pushing it in, it can be entered with comparative ease. On account of the twisting motion , which reduces the resistance, the sleeve valve never comes to rest, but is continually in motion
The continual movement
Quote:
which allows of the sleeve ascending and descending via different paths, provides a natural lubricating motion, spreading the oil over the entire surfaces to which the sleeve comes into contact. It is impossible for the sleeve to sieze, as even if the lubricating oil were cut off entirely, the first thing to seize would be a piston or bearing
Apparently sleeve seizure was extremely uncommon, and sleeve/piston replacement didn't require block work.
(*) from "The High Speed Internal-Combustion Engine" by Sir Harry Ricardo, 1931
Originally Posted By: 79sunrunner
Any prewar car fans hear?
I must thank you for the thread, it got me re-interested in a series of 4 books that I purchased a couple of years BC (Before Children), that I dragged out on the weekend while trying to retrieve my engineering thesis.
The books are these...
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/books/antiq...i-ii-iii-871511
published in 1913 (not even my house is that old), and I've got the volume 4, 1920.
Books were given to a guy "Robert Dunnan" by his brother and sister, Harry and Margaret when he left New York in January 1925.
I've only every touched one issue of Sir Harry Ricardo's book, and devoured it as one of the great classics.
Any prewar car fans hear?
I must thank you for the thread, it got me re-interested in a series of 4 books that I purchased a couple of years BC (Before Children), that I dragged out on the weekend while trying to retrieve my engineering thesis.
The books are these...
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/books/antiq...i-ii-iii-871511
published in 1913 (not even my house is that old), and I've got the volume 4, 1920.
Books were given to a guy "Robert Dunnan" by his brother and sister, Harry and Margaret when he left New York in January 1925.
I've only every touched one issue of Sir Harry Ricardo's book, and devoured it as one of the great classics.
Some beautiful cars! Love the hood ornament!
Shannow, That is awesome. I can't imagine the Mineral oils that were "less prone to either to carbonization, or to oxidation or gumming" were anywhere near what we have today and would cause considerable issues if used now. I wonder what kind of mess the Animal oils must have made.
Shannow, That is awesome. I can't imagine the Mineral oils that were "less prone to either to carbonization, or to oxidation or gumming" were anywhere near what we have today and would cause considerable issues if used now. I wonder what kind of mess the Animal oils must have made.
Slightly off topic, but I watched a Hawker Sea Fury at the Reno air races. The engine was a sleeve valve, "Bristol Centaurus" radial, with of course, sleeve valve cylinders.
He ran in the unlimited race and, while a bit slower than the fastest planes, he did say that he was being easy on the engine to ensure long life. It was by no means slow, at well over 400MPH! The pilot explained how the boost was automatically controlled and how the engine made excellent HP for it's weight and frontal area (no valves on top of the cylinder to increase cylinder height) . Also, burned less fuel.
It sounded good while flying by. I thought that it was a touch less noisy than the group leaders. And most of the noise came from the prop. So, it was hard to tell if the engine actually sounded significantly different than other radials.
He ran in the unlimited race and, while a bit slower than the fastest planes, he did say that he was being easy on the engine to ensure long life. It was by no means slow, at well over 400MPH! The pilot explained how the boost was automatically controlled and how the engine made excellent HP for it's weight and frontal area (no valves on top of the cylinder to increase cylinder height) . Also, burned less fuel.
It sounded good while flying by. I thought that it was a touch less noisy than the group leaders. And most of the noise came from the prop. So, it was hard to tell if the engine actually sounded significantly different than other radials.
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Wear was my concern because of the difficulty in finding/making replacement parts. But if seizure is unlikely because of all the oil on the surface, then perhaps wear isn't that bad...but there is so much contact area that wear would still be my principal concern...
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