Kia Oil Filters

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Originally Posted By: Hootbro
The KIA/Hyundai oil filter issue seems to get regurgitated ever so often with the same misconception that only the OEM filter will maintain warranty. That is a misstatement.

The TSB is only advice for the dealership and maintenance folks on what to do if someone actually has a reported problem and a aftermarket oil filter is installed and replacement fixes the issue.

The TSB is not a blanket statement that "all" aftermarket oil filters are bad, just that KIA/Hyundai can not recommend any other filter than what is OEM (just as any other car maker would state also).

KIA/Hyundai can not legally deny warranty claim just for seeing or noting a aftermarket oil filter installed, they have to prove it. The only thing by having a OEM filter installed does, is that it removes one more point of contention if you have a lubrication related warranty issue.

Excellent post. Thanks for adding some reasoning and informed analysis to the H/K oil filter TSB hysteria.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac

Excellent post. Thanks for adding some reasoning and informed analysis to the H/K oil filter TSB hysteria.


This issue seems to cycle ever so often because someone is just seeing it for the first time and then re-posts the same Chicken Little statements about KIA/Hyundai will deny your car warranty for using an aftermarket filter.

The thing people overlook when they see that TSB, is the "CIRCULATE TO:" section. In every marked box, all those people are in the warranty/service department. It is not circulated to sales or even meant for public consumption,it is for the warranty/service people only. It is only guidance if for some Joe Blow that comes in having some god only knows what jobber brand filter that was put on with the intention of "it fits" rather than if the filter is properly spec'd for KIA application.

From my observation and experience with my SOUL, the main issues with aftermarket filters is that some house brand filters made by whomever, many times catalog a filter that was designed for a Honda like a Fram PH2808 that has a lower bypass 8-12 PSI rating than a proper spec PH9688 filter with a bypass of 15-20 PSI.

People just have to use common sense when they are buy a filter for their KIA/Hyundai. I whole heatedly recommend the OEM, it is a great stout filter. That being said, nothing wrong by an aftermarket so long as the person buying knows it is the proper designed one for KIA's and not a Honda P/N that was just thrown into the catalog because it fit.
 
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Originally Posted By: sayjac

Thanks for adding some reasoning and informed analysis to the H/K oil filter TSB hysteria.


I don't think anyone in this thread is "hysterical" or making "Chicken Little statements." A couple people may have (incorrectly) assumed that using an aftermarket filter could void their warranty.

I actually don't think I've ever even read a claim by someone that an aftermarket filter killed a Hyundai/Kia engine. I've only read about the knocking sounds warned about in the TSBs.

I never said that using an aftermarket filter would void warranties and I didn't post the TSBs to try to get people to think their warranty was being voided by using an aftermarket filter. I don't think showing the TSB so people can read it counts as "hysteria." It obviously is a real issue, since Hyundai issued the TSB not once, but twice.
 
No hysteria here. I simply noticed a clear mandate by a corporation to generate a paperwork trail in the event a non-OEM oil filter was used (the use of an ANSI style warning symbol was a nice touch). Paperwork trails generally have a reason...
 
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I don't think anyone in this thread is "hysterical" or making "Chicken Little statements." .......

Characterize it then as you will then. Imo, the H/K tsb much as in this discussion, tends to get blown out of proportion, ie., use of aftermarket filters risk voiding of the warranty. I think Hoot's thoughtful and informed post put the H/K tsb in it's proper perspective.
 
I ran across a recent thread on another forum that relates to this.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
However I see on both bulletins they have it marked "all models". That doesn't make sense to me. While I will believe some of those issues could have been caused by a less than optimum spin on filter, (the original TSB pictured an e-core) how on earth could a drop in cartridge filter cause any such problems? They don't even have ADBV or bypasses on the cartridge.

Other than improper fit I fail to see how a cartridge filter (which many Hyundai/KIA vehicles use) could be to blame for much of anything. I think they are being a little overzealous with their TSB.


There's a recent thread on a Hyundai forum where a member with a V6 model apparently got a knock and replacing the filter fixed it. Now, I suppose the OP in that thread could be mistaken, but he seems to know his model is a V6, which uses a cartridge filter.

Unfortunately, the person posting this thread didn't mention the brand of filter that was on his car.

Assuming the info in the thread is accurate, it appears to be an example of a Hyundai getting a knock with an aftermarket cartridge filter.

http://www.hyundai-forums.com/181-nf-200...e-knocking.html

Here are just a couple excerpts from the thread:
Originally Posted By: flagolfnut;1227524
The dealer is telling me that it can be caused by aftermarket filters and o-rings, so he is changing the oil and going to test the car again in the morning.

My mechanic friend is calling bull, that an engine knock is an engine knock and they need to honor the warranty. Tomorrow should be an interesting morning.

I will probably have to insist that they open up the motor...


Originally Posted By: flagolfnut;1228988
Picked up the car this afternoon and lo and behold the knock is gone. The tech explained it all to me...I wish I could recall the details.

In a nutshell, when there is less than optimum management of oil pressure, due to slight variations in the non-Hyundai parts, it impacts the timing chain, and it starts making contact with the top, plastic cover over the engine. The oil change and new parts improves the pressure, eliminating the problem.

Is it true? I can only say that the knocking sound is gone, and the dealer I went to is 40 miles away and the car was fine the whole way home.
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I read the thread, interesting. We'll see how the Wix works out then, it's going in this coming weekend.


I would try it without worry. At least you'll know what to check if you ever get a knock. It's clearly not caused by every aftermarket filter. At the very most it's a small minority of filters that cause it, or it would be a much more common issue.

I was sort of thinking the same as you. I couldn't really understand how a cartridge filter with no ADBV or bypass could cause a knock. But, perhaps there's something else at play. Or, perhaps that thread from the Hyundai forum is a complete fluke.
 
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
I ran across a recent thread on another forum that relates to this.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
However I see on both bulletins they have it marked "all models". That doesn't make sense to me. While I will believe some of those issues could have been caused by a less than optimum spin on filter, (the original TSB pictured an e-core) how on earth could a drop in cartridge filter cause any such problems? They don't even have ADBV or bypasses on the cartridge.

Other than improper fit I fail to see how a cartridge filter (which many Hyundai/KIA vehicles use) could be to blame for much of anything. I think they are being a little overzealous with their TSB.


There's a recent thread on a Hyundai forum where a member with a V6 model apparently got a knock and replacing the filter fixed it. Now, I suppose the OP in that thread could be mistaken, but he seems to know his model is a V6, which uses a cartridge filter.

Unfortunately, the person posting this thread didn't mention the brand of filter that was on his car.

Assuming the info in the thread is accurate, it appears to be an example of a Hyundai getting a knock with an aftermarket cartridge filter.

http://www.hyundai-forums.com/181-nf-200...e-knocking.html

Here are just a couple excerpts from the thread:
Originally Posted By: flagolfnut;1227524
The dealer is telling me that it can be caused by aftermarket filters and o-rings, so he is changing the oil and going to test the car again in the morning.

My mechanic friend is calling bull, that an engine knock is an engine knock and they need to honor the warranty. Tomorrow should be an interesting morning.

I will probably have to insist that they open up the motor...


Originally Posted By: flagolfnut;1228988
Picked up the car this afternoon and lo and behold the knock is gone. The tech explained it all to me...I wish I could recall the details.

In a nutshell, when there is less than optimum management of oil pressure, due to slight variations in the non-Hyundai parts, it impacts the timing chain, and it starts making contact with the top, plastic cover over the engine. The oil change and new parts improves the pressure, eliminating the problem.

Is it true? I can only say that the knocking sound is gone, and the dealer I went to is 40 miles away and the car was fine the whole way home.




That makes a lot of sense-because I thought I heard chain rattle in the video you posted-the different bypass pressure rating is affecting the chain tensioner.
 
Ahh... it is my understanding the new 3.5 "Lambda II" v-6 that is in our KIA doesn't even have a chain. I guess filter concerns are even less relevant for those.
 
I'm having a tough time trying to imagine how an engine can be so sensitive to an oil filter when it has a positive displacement oil pump. I'm assuming the Kia does has a PD oil pump. If so, then it must not be a very good one, or else the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump is super low on it. To have an engine knock or not at idle depending on what oil filter is on the engine is just strange and shouldn't happen unless the filter is so restrictive that the oil pump goes into pressure relief and there's still hardly any oil flow going through the filter.
 
Too late to EDIT: Wikipedia indicates all the Lamda II engines do use timing chains.

All righty then, back to "try it and see". Sayjac has used Wix catridge filters without issue in his Hyundai however, which is what convinced me to go ahead and give it a shot.

The Wix does say "Made in South Korea" on it so I'm not thinking it's a great stretch from OEM though.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I'm having a tough time trying to imagine how an engine can be so sensitive to an oil filter when it has a positive displacement oil pump. I'm assuming the Kia does has a PD oil pump. If so, then it must not be a very good one, or else the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump is super low on it. To have an engine knock or not at idle depending on what oil filter is on the engine is just strange and shouldn't happen unless the filter is so restrictive that the oil pump goes into pressure relief and there's still hardly any oil flow going through the filter.

Agreed, IMO some H/K stealers may be using these filter tsb's to shine on unsavvy owners, sell more H/K oem filters and/or scare customers using aftermarket filters with warranty concerns. I'm thinking this is more an issue with some H/K engines. It does make me wonder about the efficiency of the H/K oem filters though, specifically if they are not very efficient. As there's nothing published, one can only speculate
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I'm having a tough time trying to imagine how an engine can be so sensitive to an oil filter when it has a positive displacement oil pump. I'm assuming the Kia does has a PD oil pump. If so, then it must not be a very good one, or else the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump is super low on it. To have an engine knock or not at idle depending on what oil filter is on the engine is just strange and shouldn't happen unless the filter is so restrictive that the oil pump goes into pressure relief and there's still hardly any oil flow going through the filter.

Agreed, IMO some H/K stealers may be using these filter tsb's to shine on unsavvy owners, sell more H/K oem filters and/or scare customers using aftermarket filters with warranty concerns. I'm thinking this is more an issue with some H/K engines. It does make me wonder about the efficiency of the H/K oem filters though, specifically if they are not very efficient. As there's nothing published, one can only speculate


I agree it does make you wonder if the OEM filters are very "poor efficiency, flow like a sieve" kind of filters. Bu then again it appears one of the filters that has consistently caused problems is the e-core canister filters, and they are probably about as good a flowing filter as anything. There I finally found something good to say about an e-core!

I've seen virtually no data on cartridge filters at all, flow, efficiencies, nothing.
 
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I'm having a tough time trying to imagine how an engine can be so sensitive to an oil filter when it has a positive displacement oil pump. I'm assuming the Kia does has a PD oil pump. If so, then it must not be a very good one, or else the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump is super low on it. To have an engine knock or not at idle depending on what oil filter is on the engine is just strange and shouldn't happen unless the filter is so restrictive that the oil pump goes into pressure relief and there's still hardly any oil flow going through the filter.

Agreed, IMO some H/K stealers may be using these filter tsb's to shine on unsavvy owners, sell more H/K oem filters and/or scare customers using aftermarket filters with warranty concerns. I'm thinking this is more an issue with some H/K engines. It does make me wonder about the efficiency of the H/K oem filters though, specifically if they are not very efficient. As there's nothing published, one can only speculate


I agree it does make you wonder if the OEM filters are very "poor efficiency, flow like a sieve" kind of filters.

I've seen virtually no data on cartridge filters at all, flow, efficiencies, nothing.


But what's puzzling is that good brand name filters flow pretty good anyway. I mean they will flow 6~8 GPM of hot oil with only a few PSI of pressure drop across the media. Do these KIA engines knock only when cold, or even with hot oil?

With a positive displacement oil pump in good condition, basically every ounce of oil is forced through the filter unless the oil pump's outlet pressure hits the pressure relief valve setting (say 80 PSI). It would be hard to believe that any engine designer would design an oiling system that was super sensitive to oil filters.

What kind of oil pressure does a typical KIA engine produce at idle with cold oil? What oil pressure at near redline with hot oil? I just wonder if the KIA engine oiling system is ultra restrictive to begin with, and any filter that is somewhat restrictive does affect the oil flow to the engine because the oil pump is always near max pressure relief. Note that the oil pump's pressure relief valve has nothing to do with the filter's bypass valve - they are two independently operating valves, and work for different reasons.
 
UPDATE:

I just did the first OCI on our new KIA. According to the maintenance sticker it had dealer installed Quaker State Conventional in it. I assumed an OEM filter to go with it.

WRONG! To my dismay the filter I pulled out of it was a Mahle!
shocked.gif
In great shape I might add. So apparently even some dealers are not particularly concerned about OEM filters.

I'll post pics of the Mahle sometime soon since we have so little info on cartridges on here, but it looked great and the KIA ran flawlessly with it. I replaced it with a Napa Gold.
 
Quote:
Mahle cartridge filter is one of the best you can buy for any car.

While that may true for most/most applications as the linked thead below shows, the made for Hyundai Mahle appears to be nothing exceptional imo. It has felt like endcaps, and is significantly more expensive than C250 H/K OEM filter with nylon/composite end caps.

Hyundai OEM cartridges. Mahle vs Hyundai
 
On my 2008 Accent I would get a knocking sound when using a Purolator filter. But only when the OCI was approaching, say after 4k miles. The OEM filter did stop it and they aren't that expensive when you get them in bulk from ebay.

I cut the Purolator and a Hyundai one open for comparison.

.
two-filters-cut-up.jpg


top-off-of-filters.jpg


two-filters-gutted.jpg


two-filter-bottom.jpg


two-filters-top-close-2.jpg
 
^^^Been posted here at least a couple times before. So you are the original dissection poster on the SuperMotors site?

As I commented before on the dissection, while it is illuminating it's comparing a $3.27 nitrile adbv Classic to the Hyundai oem, which is apples to oranges.

A more appropriate apples to apples comparison imo, would have been a P1 PL14459 with similar silicon adbv.

The Hyundai does appear to be well made, have any authoritative information on it's efficiency spec?
 
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