Kerosene

[Mystic]

The big problem on the internet is people can pretend to be something they are not. Somebody can claim to have a PhD here and for all we know the guy may have only completed high school.

I was not raised that way and even on the internet I am not going to claim that I am something I am not. But on the other hand I am not going to reveal much of myself on the internet.

One thing for sure, I don't take what anybody says at this website at face value unless I know something about who I am dealing with. And I also put value on my own experiences.

I happen to know a considerable great deal about demarpaint and I would believe him before I would believe a lot of others. I know that Trav is a professional mechanic. I know that Steve and Clevy have their own businesses. And I know that rockydee knows his way around an automobile. He has built project cars.

When somebody has worked on cars for a long time and has decades of experience with a product, such as MMO, I tend to believe what somebody like that has to say.

But there are some people here who just want to attack whoever they do not like. There are a lot of guys at this website who have used MMO and other products such as Kreen. When all of those people are disrespected that reflects more on those doing the disrespecting than the many guys who are being disrespected.

 

[MolaKule]

There is a huge difference between disagreements and disrespect.

Disagreement and the presentation of facts do not equal disrespect.

 

[Mystic]

I know disrespect when I see it. So does everybody else.

 

[aa1986]

You know, I give rockydee some credit in this thread. He didn't want to believe so came across a little bit cynical about the statement that MMO is mainly kerosene. But he asked questions, read the replies and the facts penetrated his disbelief.

He then left the thread. I think he could have thanked Molakule for his patience and for educating him, but he didn't, and that's ok. As a teacher, Molakule has no doubt thousands of times gone through the process of taking someone with a preconception through the facts until they sink in. Indeed, in rockydee's case, that process was over relatively quickly and took a few days. With some people it takes weeks, or even years and sometimes a lifetime or never to overcome deeply held beliefs.

So in that regard, the fact that the two of you are still here philosophizing about "experts", commenting on "the pack of wolves" out to "attack" you, speculating about who exactly you are talking to on the internet, naming other posters who you trust more, and insinuating there has been disrespect towards you, all as a result of a post that stated the fact that MMO is mainly kerosene, is pretty conclusive proof of and ironically a realization of the "Fallacy of Diversion" behavior that Molakule drew our attention to a few pages back.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Not in this case.

And instead of the following:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Rockydee the same old attack on MMO by mostly the same group of people. It never ends. Hopefully they will not next tell everybody they need to use an expensive engine cleaning product.

MMO has been used for decades and the ingredients have been listed here at this website.


Which is vacuous, you present facts to counter.

Yes, the ingredients have been listed. One is by an unknown, done where no one knows. Then we have a second list done by a known person and where it was done.

Instead of this:

Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Wow I missed this thread. The list, that's a good name for it. I posted it more times than I can remember. It was borrowed I think from the MMO board?


take a jab or two if I'm up to it.



First of all, you verify the list. What does that mean? You *know* with certainty where it came from. Where it first came from. Then, you verify that it is accurate. You find out *who* did it. *Where* it was performed.

You don't take "jabs". All that does is show that it is all you have. That you have no coherent argument to make.

You don't make silly claims that those who present the facts that you can't counter saying that they *hate* a product.

Better that you spend the time *refuting* the facts.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"experts"

Many "experts" get a lot of things tragically wrong.


Not in this case.

And instead of the following:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Rockydee the same old attack on MMO by mostly the same group of people. It never ends. Hopefully they will not next tell everybody they need to use an expensive engine cleaning product.

MMO has been used for decades and the ingredients have been listed here at this website.


Which is vacuous, you present facts to counter.

Instead of this:

Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Wow I missed this thread. The list, that's a good name for it. I posted it more times than I can remember. It was borrowed I think from the MMO board?


take a jab or two if I'm up to it.



First of all, you verify the list. What does that mean? You *know* with certainty where it came from. Where it first came from. Then, you verify that it is accurate. You find out *who* did it. *Where* it was performed.

You don't take "jabs". All that does is show that it is all you have. That you have no coherent argument to make.

You don't make silly claims that those who present the facts that you can't counter saying that they *hate* a product.

Better that you spend the time *refuting* the facts


Like clockwork Trajan. I'm not going to waste my time refuting anything, all that can be said was said by others. Calling your next predicable move is more fun.
You know what's funny I tried my best to stay out of this thread. I was quoted and the rest is history. Rockydee is smart he bailed rather than risk getting tossed saying something he might regret.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Like clockwork Trajan. I'm not going to waste my time refuting anything, all that can be said was said by others. Calling your next predicable move is more fun.
You know what's funny I tried my best to stay out of this thread. I was quoted and the rest is history. Rockydee is smart he bailed rather than risk getting tossed saying something he might regret.


Every single statement in this reply "seems" to fit the "Fallacy of Diversion". Opinions vary. I do not claim to be an expert in this.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Like clockwork Trajan. I'm not going to waste my time refuting anything, all that can be said was said by others. Calling your next predicable move is more fun.
You know what's funny I tried my best to stay out of this thread. I was quoted and the rest is history. Rockydee is smart he bailed rather than risk getting tossed saying something he might regret.


Every single statement in this reply "seems" to fit the "Fallacy of Diversion". Opinions vary. I do not claim to be an expert in this.


Like clockwork...............

Can't refute, so...........

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Like clockwork Trajan. I'm not going to waste my time refuting anything, all that can be said was said by others. Calling your next predicable move is more fun.
You know what's funny I tried my best to stay out of this thread. I was quoted and the rest is history. Rockydee is smart he bailed rather than risk getting tossed saying something he might regret.


Every single statement in this reply "seems" to fit the "Fallacy of Diversion". Opinions vary. I do not claim to be an expert in this.


LOL keep digging Dr. Like clockwork.

 

[demarpaint]

Since a few members are always seeking facts here are a few about this thread:



1. I didn't post 'the list' aa did.
2. I came in to defend a fairly new member Rocky dee and explain to him what often occurs when MMO is mentioned. I did however quote the list and explain where I thought it might have come from. BTW I was not the first member to post that list here, someone else did.
3. I told Mystic not to waste his time in the thread.
4. I quoted and agreed with Mr.Quackers and added that experts can be wrong in all walks of life. I'll go out on a limb here and say that's probably a fact too.


Oh and never once did I say that Molakule's report was incorrect, nor did I challenge it. Oh and yes I did say I'd probably take a few jabs if I was up to it. You seem to be doing the same thing. Had I not been quoted we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Wow I missed this thread. The list, that's a good name for it. I posted it more times than I can remember. It was borrowed I think from the MMO board?


Which MMO board? I see many blogs discussing MMO but don't know which board you are referring to. And I see the same old and incorrect component list perpetuated.

Below is a quote taken out of a 2004 Ford Enthusiasts blog(emphasis mine):

Quote:
Detergents And Solvents

Many of the older, better-known oil treatments on the market do
not make claims nearly so lavish as the new upstarts. Old standbys
like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil, instead offer things
like "quieter lifters," "reduced oil burning" and a "cleaner
engine."

Most of these products are made up of solvents and detergents
designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine so they can be flushed or burned out. Wynn’s Friction Proofing Oil, for example, is 83 percent kerosene. Other brands use naphthalene, xylene, acetone and isopropanol.

In general, these products are designed to do just the opposite
of what the PTFE and zinc phosphate additives claim to do. Instead of leaving behind a "coating" or a "plating" on your engine surfaces, they are designed to strip away such things.

All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and
clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one.

The problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your engine.

As a general rule of thumb these products had their place and
were at least moderately useful on older automobile and motorcycle
engines of the Fifties and Sixties, but are basically unneeded on the more efficient engine designs of the past two decades.


http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/snake-oil-is-that-additive-really-a-negative/

 

[Trajan]

nvm

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
A gallon of Crown-1K kerosene is $10.78 at Lowes

A gallon of MMO is $15.87 at Walmart.



I'll play I'm between watching football games.

Trajan re-read what Molakule said, he said MMO was mostly Kerosene. The key word is mostly, Kerosene is all Kerosene.

 

[aa1986]

When MMO or any other additive is not actually required, the fact that the lubricant is in good condition and there was no adverse effect on the engine speaks more to the robustness of the oil and the engineering reserve built into the design, than to the usefulness of the unneeded additive.

Those using MMO or other additives at every oil change in a well running engine, are wasting their money. Hence the term snake oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: aa1986
When MMO or any other additive is not actually required, the fact that the lubricant is in good condition and there was no adverse effect on the engine speaks more to the robustness of the oil and the engineering reserve built into the design, than to the usefulness of the unneeded additive.

Those using MMO or other additives at every oil change in a well running engine, are wasting their money. Hence the term snake oil.


That could very well be the case. But for someone looking to clean an engine, or silence a tick, and repair is not an option, and short oci's with synthetic oil doesn't work its nice to know there other options. Even Molakule agrees with that.

No need for it in a good healthy engine.

 

[Al]

OK..I think its obvious not (to me) that I have been wasting $$$ on MMO. Now I do have to say that my fuel economy is usually about .5 mpg when using it. I know its hard to believe. Maybe I don't believe it.

But my question..if it is mostly kerosene its possible that the additional bit of lubricity in MMO/Kerosene might contribute to it. Now obviously if 8 oz of kerosene improves fuel economy its possible that:
1. There is no increase in economy
2. There is an increase in economy but it is harmbulj to the cat.
3. There is economy and no one has thought of this befoe.

Any thoughts?

I don't see it harming the cat.I think the answer is 3...lol

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
No need for it in a good healthy engine.


Correct. No need to use it in a healthy engine.

Yet this is what MMO say on their website.

They must love people who copy and paste incorrect lists of ingredients and who try to persuade people that UOA's are a justification for using MMO.

Originally Posted By: MMO
Marvel should be added to your engine oil at every oil change.

Marvel fortifies the properties of motor oil, both traditional and synthetic. Marvel prevents oil breakdown caused by extreme temperatures. In addition, Marvel promotes easier cold weather starting with its extremely low pour point of (-65) Fahrenheit and ability to eliminate oil's tendency to congeal at low temperatures.

In newer engines, Marvel protects against scoring or seizing and creates a highly polished, wear resistant finish on engine surfaces.

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: Al
OK..I think its obvious not (to me) that I have been wasting $$$ on MMO. Now I do have to say that my fuel economy is usually about .5 mpg when using it. I know its hard to believe. Maybe I don't believe it.

But my question..if it is mostly kerosene its possible that the additional bit of lubricity in MMO/Kerosene might contribute to it. Now obviously if 8 oz of kerosene improves fuel economy its possible that:
1. There is no increase in economy
2. There is an increase in economy but it is harmbulj to the cat.
3. There is economy and no one has thought of this befoe.

Any thoughts?

I don't see it harming the cat.I think the answer is 3...lol


Even if the 0.5mpg improvement is true, then your savings through higher mpg are wiped out by paying $16 per gallon of MMO and substituting that for $2.50 per gallon gas.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Al
OK..I think its obvious not (to me) that I have been wasting $$$ on MMO. Now I do have to say that my fuel economy is usually about .5 mpg when using it. I know its hard to believe. Maybe I don't believe it.

But my question..if it is mostly kerosene its possible that the additional bit of lubricity in MMO/Kerosene might contribute to it. Now obviously if 8 oz of kerosene improves fuel economy its possible that:
1. There is no increase in economy
2. There is an increase in economy but it is harmbulj to the cat.
3. There is economy and no one has thought of this befoe.

Any thoughts?

I don't see it harming the cat.I think the answer is 3...lol


Here's a thought on mmo.
Originally Posted By: edhackett

At 4 oz. per 10 gal. and 25 mpg, you are putting the equivalent of burning 1 qt. of oil per 2000 miles in phosphorus through your cat. Will that cause long term problems? I don't know, but the less phosphorus thru the cat the better.

If your goal is cleanliness, an additive containing PEA is better all around.
Ed


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3442362/2

 

[aa1986]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/snake-oil-is-that-additive-really-a-negative/


The above link from Molakule includes some more great pieces of info and advice:

Quote:
In addition, recent new evidence has come to light that makes
using almost any additive a game of Russian Roulette. Since the
additive distributors do not list the ingredients contained within
their products, you never know for sure just what you are putting in
your engine.

Recent tests have shown that even some of the most inoffensive
additives contain products which, though harmless in their initial
state, convert to hydrofluoric acid when exposed to the temperatures
inside a firing cylinder. This acid is formed as part of the exhaust
gases, and though it is instantly expelled from your engine and seems
to do it no harm, the gases collect inside your exhaust system and
eat away at your mufflers from the inside out.