Is cold, thick oil really that hard on a starter? Starter motor's have lots of torque; it seems internal engine friction and compression would pose a much greater resistance than thick oil?
Just how badly do we need 0wXX and 5wXX?
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Originally Posted By: G-MAN
In the rest of the country I think everyone got along fine running 20w20 or SAE 30 year round. And no matter where you lived, too thick oil was a starting issue in severe cold. I don't think there was a rash of blown engines each winter due to thick oil.
I guess my point is that modern 0wXX and 5wXX oils were and are the product of a quest for reduced operating friction and the resultant improvement in fuel economy. From a mechanical failure standpoint, absent near arctic conditions, modern engines will do fine, IMO, on straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 year round.
NB: I went to the grocery store last night around 11 pm. My Chrysler 300M has Valvoline SAE 30 in it and had been sitting all day. The temp was 33F and it started right up like it always does with no unusual noises or protests. (In fact, as I have posted before, startups with SAE 30 are actually quieter since I don't get any bearing rattle on the initial startup rev.)
Just some food for thought...
How many 1930 Fords went 300,000 miles before requiring major engine work? I'm guessing none
Using SAE 30 year-round in areas with temps below 32*F/0*C in a DOHC engine with a modern oil pump will shorten the life of said engine, in my opinion.
Now if you want to substitute 10w30 for the recommended 5w30 then more power to you, as i dont think it would be a problem in most circumstances.
However if you choose to continue with the SAE30, by all means keep us posted. It will be an interesting real-world experiment. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
In the rest of the country I think everyone got along fine running 20w20 or SAE 30 year round. And no matter where you lived, too thick oil was a starting issue in severe cold. I don't think there was a rash of blown engines each winter due to thick oil.
I guess my point is that modern 0wXX and 5wXX oils were and are the product of a quest for reduced operating friction and the resultant improvement in fuel economy. From a mechanical failure standpoint, absent near arctic conditions, modern engines will do fine, IMO, on straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 year round.
NB: I went to the grocery store last night around 11 pm. My Chrysler 300M has Valvoline SAE 30 in it and had been sitting all day. The temp was 33F and it started right up like it always does with no unusual noises or protests. (In fact, as I have posted before, startups with SAE 30 are actually quieter since I don't get any bearing rattle on the initial startup rev.)
Just some food for thought...
How many 1930 Fords went 300,000 miles before requiring major engine work? I'm guessing none
Using SAE 30 year-round in areas with temps below 32*F/0*C in a DOHC engine with a modern oil pump will shorten the life of said engine, in my opinion.
Now if you want to substitute 10w30 for the recommended 5w30 then more power to you, as i dont think it would be a problem in most circumstances.
However if you choose to continue with the SAE30, by all means keep us posted. It will be an interesting real-world experiment. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
Originally Posted By: hominid7
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
In the rest of the country I think everyone got along fine running 20w20 or SAE 30 year round. And no matter where you lived, too thick oil was a starting issue in severe cold. I don't think there was a rash of blown engines each winter due to thick oil.
I guess my point is that modern 0wXX and 5wXX oils were and are the product of a quest for reduced operating friction and the resultant improvement in fuel economy. From a mechanical failure standpoint, absent near arctic conditions, modern engines will do fine, IMO, on straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 year round.
NB: I went to the grocery store last night around 11 pm. My Chrysler 300M has Valvoline SAE 30 in it and had been sitting all day. The temp was 33F and it started right up like it always does with no unusual noises or protests. (In fact, as I have posted before, startups with SAE 30 are actually quieter since I don't get any bearing rattle on the initial startup rev.)
Just some food for thought...
How many 1930 Fords went 300,000 miles before requiring major engine work? I'm guessing none
Using SAE 30 year-round in areas with temps below 32*F/0*C in a DOHC engine with a modern oil pump will shorten the life of said engine, in my opinion.
Now if you want to substitute 10w30 for the recommended 5w30 then more power to you, as i dont think it would be a problem in most circumstances.
However if you choose to continue with the SAE30, by all means keep us posted. It will be an interesting real-world experiment. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
I'm switching to 20w20 at the next oil change. If for some reason Valvoline stops making 20w20 (which it's been rumored they will), I'll probably use SAE 30 spring, summer, fall, and 10w30 in the winter.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
In the rest of the country I think everyone got along fine running 20w20 or SAE 30 year round. And no matter where you lived, too thick oil was a starting issue in severe cold. I don't think there was a rash of blown engines each winter due to thick oil.
I guess my point is that modern 0wXX and 5wXX oils were and are the product of a quest for reduced operating friction and the resultant improvement in fuel economy. From a mechanical failure standpoint, absent near arctic conditions, modern engines will do fine, IMO, on straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 year round.
NB: I went to the grocery store last night around 11 pm. My Chrysler 300M has Valvoline SAE 30 in it and had been sitting all day. The temp was 33F and it started right up like it always does with no unusual noises or protests. (In fact, as I have posted before, startups with SAE 30 are actually quieter since I don't get any bearing rattle on the initial startup rev.)
Just some food for thought...
How many 1930 Fords went 300,000 miles before requiring major engine work? I'm guessing none
Using SAE 30 year-round in areas with temps below 32*F/0*C in a DOHC engine with a modern oil pump will shorten the life of said engine, in my opinion.
Now if you want to substitute 10w30 for the recommended 5w30 then more power to you, as i dont think it would be a problem in most circumstances.
However if you choose to continue with the SAE30, by all means keep us posted. It will be an interesting real-world experiment. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
I'm switching to 20w20 at the next oil change. If for some reason Valvoline stops making 20w20 (which it's been rumored they will), I'll probably use SAE 30 spring, summer, fall, and 10w30 in the winter.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: bruce381
The push for multi gradea came about NOT for fuel mileage improvment but for over head cam motors that would eat the cam when using straight grade oils up north in minus temps also back then the oils were all GPI at best and cold flow was a problem.
bruce
Bruce, I can't buy that. If we're talking about the development of multigrade oils in the 50s, there wasn't a single US carmaker producing OHC engines at the time. If we're talking about the push to highly friction modified 5w30 and 10w30 in the early 80s, once again not a single US carmaker produced any OHC engines at the time.
The goal in the 50s was to aid cold starting. The goal in the 80s was to increase MPG due to more stringent CAFE standards.
My bad I'm thinking of the change in the CCS temps to help "fix" OHC problems so you are right.
bruce
Originally Posted By: bruce381
The push for multi gradea came about NOT for fuel mileage improvment but for over head cam motors that would eat the cam when using straight grade oils up north in minus temps also back then the oils were all GPI at best and cold flow was a problem.
bruce
Bruce, I can't buy that. If we're talking about the development of multigrade oils in the 50s, there wasn't a single US carmaker producing OHC engines at the time. If we're talking about the push to highly friction modified 5w30 and 10w30 in the early 80s, once again not a single US carmaker produced any OHC engines at the time.
The goal in the 50s was to aid cold starting. The goal in the 80s was to increase MPG due to more stringent CAFE standards.
My bad I'm thinking of the change in the CCS temps to help "fix" OHC problems so you are right.
bruce
My father used to tell me he would light a campfire under his model A to warm up the block when it would not start in winter in Pennsylvania... I guess that means a multigrade would have helped? NO?
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G-MAN, you are right on with your first post. Multi-grades were developed so people could use one oil year round. (an oil with training wheels) It was a compromise, but worked for most people who had no clue about oil. Also, when a vehicle left the factory they did not know what time of year, or what part of the continent it would end up selling. One oil year round met that need. (BTW Pontiac did make an OHC engine in the 60'S)
You people in the south who think 32F is cold, don't know cold. I have seen -40F three times in my life. Starting is more dependant on battery condition, and state of engine tune than oil. We had -40 for four days on a snowmobile trip to Quebec in the 90's, and my high mileage Dodge van with a carbureted six started every morning (on 10W30) Some guys from the US had a Chev Suburban that started up, but the tranny was frozen and wouldn’t shift. They jacked up the rear axel and let it idle in Drive for four hours before it thawed out. It you have never been in those type of temps; it's like going to another planet.
In my Explorer I should use a 30 weight for Summer, but I keep getting sucked in by the $1.00 a liter 10W30 specials...
You people in the south who think 32F is cold, don't know cold. I have seen -40F three times in my life. Starting is more dependant on battery condition, and state of engine tune than oil. We had -40 for four days on a snowmobile trip to Quebec in the 90's, and my high mileage Dodge van with a carbureted six started every morning (on 10W30) Some guys from the US had a Chev Suburban that started up, but the tranny was frozen and wouldn’t shift. They jacked up the rear axel and let it idle in Drive for four hours before it thawed out. It you have never been in those type of temps; it's like going to another planet.
In my Explorer I should use a 30 weight for Summer, but I keep getting sucked in by the $1.00 a liter 10W30 specials...
Honestly G-man, 33°F should not present a problem to any modern oil - even a synthetic SAE 60 (which is 25W-60). The last 3-4 days it's been about 27°F here in the AM. Cars didn't notice the temperature (I did when walking the dogs with no gloves - must be getting old!) One has 0W-30, the other 5W-20
I have nothing at all against 0W-XX oils because they simply do flow better at cold temps......what I have a problem with HOW formulators get there. PPA's are just one of the additives with a worthy goal, but like VII's and polymeric thickeners, take up "volume" in any given formulation and provide no lubrication properties when the oil is at working temperature.
So what I'm saying is; modern oils are taking us closer and closer to all multi vis oils without the need for much or any flow enhancing additives, when that day arrives, then people will know some very low wear oils.
I have nothing at all against 0W-XX oils because they simply do flow better at cold temps......what I have a problem with HOW formulators get there. PPA's are just one of the additives with a worthy goal, but like VII's and polymeric thickeners, take up "volume" in any given formulation and provide no lubrication properties when the oil is at working temperature.
So what I'm saying is; modern oils are taking us closer and closer to all multi vis oils without the need for much or any flow enhancing additives, when that day arrives, then people will know some very low wear oils.
My first car was a 53 flat head Mercury. I put 10 weight in it the first winter (South Dakota), the car almost came apart when it hit fifty degrees in March and I threw in a can of STP (only proven benefit I've seen for that one in sixty plus years).
My first OHC car was a 1969 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, and you'd have to change out valve shims every six thousand miles or it'd smoke. I got rid of it at about thirty thousand miles and that was pretty long lived for that car. In this case I'm sure the design of the engine was well ahead of the design of the oil (10w40 VeeDol if I remember correctly). "Insert Fiat joke here"
I would never consider going to a straight weight oil with a modern, close tolerance engine-- but good luck to in trying it. Pablo's comments about modern synthetics lessening differences also has merit.
My first OHC car was a 1969 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, and you'd have to change out valve shims every six thousand miles or it'd smoke. I got rid of it at about thirty thousand miles and that was pretty long lived for that car. In this case I'm sure the design of the engine was well ahead of the design of the oil (10w40 VeeDol if I remember correctly). "Insert Fiat joke here"
I would never consider going to a straight weight oil with a modern, close tolerance engine-- but good luck to in trying it. Pablo's comments about modern synthetics lessening differences also has merit.
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I would never consider going to a straight weight oil with a modern, close tolerance engine-- but good luck to in trying it. Pablo's comments about modern synthetics lessening differences also has merit.
I'm in your camp. It's just not a black and white issue. Nothing with oil really is. I wouldn't rule out ever using oils that use VII's.
Oils today in modern engines are keeping wear to a bare minimum. Avg engines today are lasting 150,000 miles. Racing another story. As oil gets better and use better base oils they should rely less on VII's so it's true that using less is better.
I've read a few people that felt Redline made their Honda's a bit more sluggish and lost a few mpg. One guy is on here and has a TL. Said Amsoil 5w-20 gave him on average 3 mpg more than RL. Both oils are of similar viscosity, but one uses NO VII's, the other probably does. RL has a HT/HS of 3.3, the Amsoil 2.6. Amsoil didn't sacrifice any wear protection and in fact improved the performance of his engine.
I would never consider going to a straight weight oil with a modern, close tolerance engine-- but good luck to in trying it. Pablo's comments about modern synthetics lessening differences also has merit.
I'm in your camp. It's just not a black and white issue. Nothing with oil really is. I wouldn't rule out ever using oils that use VII's.
Oils today in modern engines are keeping wear to a bare minimum. Avg engines today are lasting 150,000 miles. Racing another story. As oil gets better and use better base oils they should rely less on VII's so it's true that using less is better.
I've read a few people that felt Redline made their Honda's a bit more sluggish and lost a few mpg. One guy is on here and has a TL. Said Amsoil 5w-20 gave him on average 3 mpg more than RL. Both oils are of similar viscosity, but one uses NO VII's, the other probably does. RL has a HT/HS of 3.3, the Amsoil 2.6. Amsoil didn't sacrifice any wear protection and in fact improved the performance of his engine.
I have a blend of HD 20w20 75% and 0w30 25% in a Camry 2.2L. Starts fine at -10 degrees Celcius, also there is less cold engine piston slap than with 0w30 alone.
My year 12 physics teacher grew up in Calgary.
When we were doing viscosity etc, he was explaining that he had a beetle running on SAE 30. he parked at the top of a hill each afternoon, as the starter couldn't move the engine.
As to 25W-70s, they will start easily at -7C...cost 3MPG over a 15W-40.
When we were doing viscosity etc, he was explaining that he had a beetle running on SAE 30. he parked at the top of a hill each afternoon, as the starter couldn't move the engine.
As to 25W-70s, they will start easily at -7C...cost 3MPG over a 15W-40.
Do I *need* 0W30 when it gets down to -20 F in Iowa?
Probably not. But it's nice when I don't have to hear the engine go "Chuh..wug..wug...wugwugwug.." in the morning, and if my engine does make it up to operating temperature, I like to have the full protection of an SAE 30 there. In really cold temperatures, straight weights are the compromise, not multiweights.
My two bits,
- Scott
Probably not. But it's nice when I don't have to hear the engine go "Chuh..wug..wug...wugwugwug.." in the morning, and if my engine does make it up to operating temperature, I like to have the full protection of an SAE 30 there. In really cold temperatures, straight weights are the compromise, not multiweights.
My two bits,
- Scott
I was just up in Superior Wisconsin (home of Amsoil) for the Thanksgiving break and it got so cold that my antenna froze half-way and wouldn't move until I had to lubricate it until it moved again. I could only imagine how my engine would've turned over with a straight 30 up there, it was really, really cold. Glad I had my 5W30 ASL Amsoil in the engine and my Amsoil ATF in the tranny.
In 1972 I bought a new VW Beetle. It called for straight 30 weight above freezing and 20 weight below freezing. I still can hear the tortured screams of pain it made in the dead of winter when starting with Valvoline 20W-20 or whatever the Valvoline 20 weight oil was at that time. Sometimes it would barely turn over. Mind you the battery was new and so was the car. I lived in central NJ which usually experiences "moderate" winter temps. Sometimes it got into the teens and even single digits, but rarely. I'll leave the single weight oil to my power washer.
Also newer vehicles rev at fast idle when first started for emissions. At least my wife's 2005 V-8 Explorer and my 2002 V-8 F-150 do that. We both use MC 5W-20 and are greatful that we do for fast oil circulation to the head at start-up.
I'm over 50 and look at "yesteryear" with nostalgia for many things, but not my motor oil
.
Whimsey
Also newer vehicles rev at fast idle when first started for emissions. At least my wife's 2005 V-8 Explorer and my 2002 V-8 F-150 do that. We both use MC 5W-20 and are greatful that we do for fast oil circulation to the head at start-up.
I'm over 50 and look at "yesteryear" with nostalgia for many things, but not my motor oil
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I have seen -40F three times in my life. If you have never been in those type of temps; it's like going to another planet.
omg that's worse than stalingrad
I have seen -40F three times in my life. If you have never been in those type of temps; it's like going to another planet.
omg that's worse than stalingrad
This helps put things into perspective, beyond the numbers...
Hope all had a nice Thanksgiving holiday!
Take care.
Hope all had a nice Thanksgiving holiday!
Take care.
I once put 10-40 in my Altima in winter, because it was lying around. It worked for most of the winter, until one week it got really cold. The daytime highs were in the negative single digits, and at night it would be 30 below. My car would start, but the valve train noise was intolerable at start up, so I froze my butt off and did oil change to 5-30. All valve train noise went away with the switch to thinner oil.
Ever poured 30 weight oil at 30 degrees? The stuff barely flows at all. No way would I run that stuff in a modern engine below 50 degrees. If the oil is too thick, the oil will not flow into the pump pickup fast enough to meet flow demands. This can cause cavitations in the oil pump, sending oil full of air to your bottom end, while oil pressure seems fine and no noises are heard, bearing wear is occurring at a rapid rate. A friend works at Oshkosh Truck, and they had this problem in the late 80's with cold start up causing excessive bearing wear, I forgot with engine manufacturer it was, but they finally traced it down to the oil being to thick at start up. The thicker oil masks the problem until wear is bad enough to start making noises. Do a UOA on 30 wt oil in cold temps; I doubt it will be as stellar as in the summer.
Ever poured 30 weight oil at 30 degrees? The stuff barely flows at all. No way would I run that stuff in a modern engine below 50 degrees. If the oil is too thick, the oil will not flow into the pump pickup fast enough to meet flow demands. This can cause cavitations in the oil pump, sending oil full of air to your bottom end, while oil pressure seems fine and no noises are heard, bearing wear is occurring at a rapid rate. A friend works at Oshkosh Truck, and they had this problem in the late 80's with cold start up causing excessive bearing wear, I forgot with engine manufacturer it was, but they finally traced it down to the oil being to thick at start up. The thicker oil masks the problem until wear is bad enough to start making noises. Do a UOA on 30 wt oil in cold temps; I doubt it will be as stellar as in the summer.
"I think everyone would agree that winters in North America are just as cold now as they were in the 50s and 60s. But I'd be willing to bet that in New England and across the upper mid-west the vis of choice back then for winter use was 20W (in the 50s) and 10w30 (in the 60s)."
In the 1950s expectations for engine life were much shorter than today. Engines which made it past 100k miles before needing a rebuild were considered extraordinary. For many years oil filters were an option and generally were of the bypass variety. The motor oils of the 1950s and 1960s were likewise junk compared to even the cheapest modern replacements.
I don't think there is any reason to use prior automotive standard practices as a rationale for what makes sense today.
In the 1950s expectations for engine life were much shorter than today. Engines which made it past 100k miles before needing a rebuild were considered extraordinary. For many years oil filters were an option and generally were of the bypass variety. The motor oils of the 1950s and 1960s were likewise junk compared to even the cheapest modern replacements.
I don't think there is any reason to use prior automotive standard practices as a rationale for what makes sense today.
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