Just breaking on CNN - another one dead!!

[Mystic]

Can you imagine what some of the above would say if American soldiers had pushed a wheelchair bound terrorist off the deck of a ship into the ocean?

Yes, somebody can consider us the enemy and fight against us. Yes, somebody can have different values then us. But exactly where in the Koran does it say it is okay to murder unarmed, helpless individuals?

People, if you do not have some concept of right and wrong, you are in serious trouble. If in any way you can justify the murder of a man in a wheelchair who threatened nobody, you had better take a close look at your values. Even if you consider the Bible to be of no value, reread the Koran. The entire Koran-not just the part picked out by terrorists like those in al Qaeda.

Do you REALLY, REALLY, WANT to live in a society that has no concept of right and wrong? A dog eat dog society where the top people are the best murderers and even they get theirs in the end?

Maybe we need more women at this site to balance out the male behavior. Perhaps to a young man a society like organized crime or like a drug organization seems like a great way to live, but somehow I doubt that most women would consider that an ideal way to live. I know my Mom would not want to live in a society like that-she went to Church once a week. Most women with children do not want to raise their children in corrupt, disgusting, murderous societies. And I as a older man would really prefer to live in a society where there is some value system.

If you have some problem with concepts of right and wrong, ask your girlfriend, spouse, wife, mother what you thinks of pushing people in wheelchairs off the decks of ships into the ocean. Ask Mom. See what she says. Thank the lord for women.

 

[Propflux01]

God said for man to judge man by mans law, meaning if a person breaks the law, he is to be judged by the law. It is his soul that gets judged by God, regardless of mans law. He may have been on his death bed asking the lord for forgiveness of his sins, and that is, of course up to the lord to answer him on that, but I firmly believe he deserves exactly the pain he gave to his fellow man while he is/was here. Can I forgive him as a person? maybe, can I forgive his actions to that man on the wheelchair. No. And if he is guilty of it, without a doubt, I would have no problem pulling the switch...then he can have his meeting with God and let the real King decide......

 

[Mystic]

The real God in the end will judge everybody. I KNOW that there is a spiritual world. People can talk about critical thinking ability and logic and all of that all they want to, but there are not a great number of atheists on death beds.

 

[Tim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by goodoleboy:
He was fighting for what he belived.
We will not know in our lifetimes if his beliefs are right or wrong.
We will may find out in the end.
As for wishing people dead "WHAT WOULD JESUS DO"

---

Even if his beliefs are correct, his methods are an abomination to Jesus, and a clear indication of where his heart is.

The ends to not justify the means...


Tim

 

[Tim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by goodoleboy:
What would Jesus Do if he had the choice of killing him or forgiving him? I know the answer.

---

Don't forget, you have to repent in order to receive forgiveness. Acts 20:21


Tim

 

[Terry]

Tim, thats why as a Christian Serviceperson before you pull the trigger on your well worn .45/9MM service automatic you give the perp a chance to get in touch with his prayer life and hopefully meet Jesus.

Then you eliminate the immediate societal threat. THEN you can you can share Christ with the non aggressors in his country and family.

Cold, but works well in the hostile environment of combat reality.

BTW this perp killed a defenseless WWII vet ( USNAVY) bound to a wheelchair on vacation on a cruise ship in the Med.

Jesus came the first time to save and be the PERFECT sacrifice, the next time we see him it will be as JUDGE. He won't be allowing himself to be whipped but he will be doing the whipping.

Terry

 

[Tim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:

Jesus came the first time to save and be the PERFECT sacrifice, the next time we see him it will be as JUDGE. He won't be allowing himself to be whipped but he will be doing the whipping.

Terry

---

That's the Bible, brother! Amen!

Tim

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Tim, thats why as a Christian Serviceperson before you pull the trigger on your well worn .45/9MM service automatic you give the perp a chance to get in touch with his prayer life and hopefully meet Jesus.

Then you eliminate the immediate societal threat. THEN you can you can share Christ with the non aggressors in his country and family.

Cold, but works well in the hostile environment of combat reality.

Terry

---

I agree with this statement and would like to add just one thing.......I'm keeping the guy's 13 virgins!

My only regret is the guy died from a heart attack, instead of a bullet between the eyes.

 

[Tim]

Terry [/qb][/QUOTE]
My only regret is the guy died from a heart attack, instead of a bullet between the eyes. [/QB][/QUOTE]


This makes me think of something Jesus said...

Do not fear the one who can only kill the body. Fear the one who, after He has killed the body, can throw the soul into he** .

The method and timing of death is very minor compared to what awaits....


Tim

[ March 13, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Tim ]

 

[goodoleboy]

Not Condoning actions or ignoring the rule of law we live under. We are just men who have the power to judge others.
Think what you want. You or i will never know what is truly right or wrong. If so I ask that prove it. It cant happen we would just talk into circles.
Thats My point.. You never really know.

 

[Tim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by goodoleboy:
You or i will never know what is truly right or wrong. If so I ask that prove it. It cant happen we would just talk into circles.
Thats My point.. You never really know.

---

You will never know, so long as you reject the Word of God as truth and rely on the reasoning of men.

Romans 12:1,2

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, THAT YE MAY PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD, AND ACCEPTABLE, AND PERFECT WILL OF GOD.

I think God is telling us here that we can know His perfect will only when we subject ourselves to Him, body and mind.

If we hold human wisdom above the wisdom of God, we are in trouble.


Tim

 

[Gary Allan]

goodoleboy ..you've stepped in a snake pit.


I don't wish him a painful death either ..although I would not protest it if it occured (sorry, I'm human). Actually my wishes for OBL are a most uninspiring death from something like kidney failure or cutting himself on a rusty nail. I have no desire to martyr this guy by having him going out in a blaze of glory in some fire fight. These are the things that future martyrs are made of.


Now the targeting of innocent civilians is unthinkable to us ...yet to the average Palestinian ...we do this via proxy by supporting the state of Israel ..which routinely annexes agacent Palestinian land and expells Palestinians from that land. We maintain that power. We fund them and provide them with F-16s ..while they get AK-47s and some plastique. Now there's an entire history about the whole scene that leads us to these things ..but let's not get into it now...

So ...and this is really asking for a stretch of your imagination here..what would you do ..if your enemy was crippling your people and no nation would champion you out of fear of your enemy's benefactor...you had no way to confront your enemy militarily and no form of negotiation lead to any relief?? Attack that which you could, perhaps? Hurt your enemy with as much pain as they inflict upon you and yours?

Now personally I "feel" that they act like savage barbarians that have no resemblance to civilized humans ..but I try and ponder what I would do if confronted with the same challenge with as big a foe... I would hope that I would behave in a more civilized manner ...but who knows what I would turn into?? When our African American community was finally given the civil rights that had been denied them for so many years ..were they grateful? NO! The had 200 years of oppressed hatred to release. Imagine if it had been allowed to continue until today. What would we see in their behaviors ...violence perhaps? Savage murders, perhaps?

We look at things as Americans ...all good and nice ...just going about our business ..but try for a minute to take into account the impact we have on others through our middle eastern foreign policy. The terrorism that you have seen didn't just appear out of thin air...it is more a symptom of somethings (many things) that are "not right".

I've studied this issue a good bit since 911 and have found that although I still fill with anger at these peoples techniques ..I can't deny that there are some things that are "allowed" to happen ..and "others" end up paying the price.

You can fill a million graves and if we don't change our disposition toward these issues ...it won't change a thing.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:



Now the targeting of innocent civilians is unthinkable to us ...yet to the average Palestinian ...we do this via proxy by supporting the state of Israel ..which routinely annexes agacent Palestinian land and expells Palestinians from that land. We maintain that power. We fund them and provide them with F-16s ..while they get AK-47s and some plastique. Now there's an entire history about the whole scene that leads us to these things ..but let's not get into it now...

So ...and this is really asking for a stretch of your imagination here..what would you do ..if your enemy was crippling your people and no nation would champion you out of fear of your enemy's benefactor...you had no way to confront your enemy militarily and no form of negotiation lead to any relief?? Attack that which you could, perhaps? Hurt your enemy with as much pain as they inflict upon you and yours?

---

Gary Allan,

I will respectfully disagree with your take on the Palistian situation. Those people are the author of their own fate,IMO. They were offered their own state and rejected it in favor of continuing the bloodbath. The land they currently live on was won by Israel in defensive wars. They don't want their own state and they don't want peace, they just want to see dead Jews and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. When your leadership is comprised of unreformed terrorists, what would you expect? The Palis are oppressed by their own gangster culture not Israel. If the U.S. didn't support Israel, can you imagine what would have happened? It is the only secular democracy in the region and they deserve all the support they get. I support civilized cultures not death cults.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

If the U.S. didn't support Israel, can you imagine what would have happened? It is the only secular democracy in the region and they deserve all the support they get. I support civilized cultures not death cults.

---

I didn't want to get this far into it ..but ...


Yes you're right. Israel, without our support, would not be standing right now. I fully support that nation's right to exist and recognize it as a friendly democracy. I also acknoledge that it has been attacked by every Arab neighbor since its creation. I also acknoledge that the PA leader Yassar Arrafat is nothing buy a loser and has done nothing but allow his people to move further into ruin and despair. There's more that you can be "right" about too ..and all that it will do is maintain the status quo of more suicide bombers and more dead...


So aside from Hamas and Hesbula and Islamic Jihad and all the little thug groups ..what about the little Palestinian with a family just like you and me? You know ..the vast majority of them that just want to go about their lives and just make a living and see another day without being blocked by a barracade?

Did we punish the Germans for Hitler? The Japanese for Tojo? Why is it ...when it comes to these crazy camel jockeys (my tongue is in my cheek here) I detect a tone that somehow I find extemely "un-American"? Are these people any less worthy of prosparity or security? Do they somehow deserve to be placed under someone's boot and ground into the sand?

That conflict has gone on for almost 50 years ..with various evolutions in between then and now. At some point in a 5 decade stone throwing contest is becomes less important on "who is right" ..and more important that it just stops. Who cares what you have to do to end the madness?


Most of the madness in the middle east is BY WESTERN DESIGN. None of you seem to realize that. The trouble between India and Pakistan is BY WESTERN DESIGN. The Brits MADE THE CURRENT MAP OF THE MIDDLE EAST and the place has been a madhouse of corruption and despair ever since. Check your history.

[ March 14, 2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Gary, I believe the Palestinians are the pawns in the ugly game being played in the region. The Arab states are thrilled with the Palestinian situation and see no reason to help resolve it which they could do in short order.

 

[keith]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
Gary, I believe the Palestinians are the pawns in the ugly game being played in the region.

---

You have hit the nail on its head. The Palestinian people have been made homeless by who? By their own leaders, that's who. Now they are only useful as sacrificial lambs in the wider conflict to kill all the Jews, then all of Western society.Should we defend Israel and by implcation ourselves against that threat?

My father served in the RAF in the mid 1940's to early 1950's in Egypt. Even then, before the lands were divided as we now know them, the Arab culture was one of kill the infidels on sight. My father was a very reasonable and educated man, and he said that you never, ever turned your back on an Arab, or else you stand a very good chance to be stabbed or shot. The idea that the modern troubles are new and our fault is laughable. My father liked the Nazi Germans more than he liked the Arabs, and it was easy to understand why. The Arab culture is violent and we are a convenient target, but not the cause.

History goes back a long way, way before May 14th 1948.

That reminds me, I really need to order the Lawrence of Arabia DVD, what a gem.

Keith.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

My father served in the RAF in the mid 1940's to early 1950's in Egypt. Even then, before the lands were divided as we now know them, the Arab culture was one of kill the infidels on sight.

---

Sorry ..you need to go back further. The Ottoman Empire was hacked up by the Brit after WWI and forever ended any sense of "order" to that region. That was the last cohesive united "Islamic" ruling body. It was also, with distinction, quite benevolent and tolerant. It offered sancuary to jews ..and Jews prospered under Islamic rule. Do you think that there would be any jews left in Arab lands if "kill the infidel" was the rule of the day? No my friend ...the "mud people" as the Nazi used to call them were not all that savage at one time. Now let's think of that Caucasion nation that truly did "kill the infidel" ..they were white and well educated ..they had the finest technology.......

quote:

---

Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX:
Gary, I believe the Palestinians are the pawns in the ugly game being played in the region.

You have hit the nail on its head. The Palestinian people have been made homeless by who? By their own leaders, that's who. Now they are only useful as sacrificial lambs in the wider conflict to kill all the Jews, then all of Western society.

---

Absolutely they are used as pawns. But I'm uncertain just who is in REAL leadership there. Certainly not Yassar Arafaat. As I discussed in another thread ..I believe that the Is-PA conflict is "used" to mask many of the surrounding Arab nations troubles. Many in that region are poor and have serious issues. It's always easier if you can say "**** Jews!!" and blame them for you misery. For many Arabs ..it's like being trapped in some Owellian 1984 ..where the society is kept on the brink of despair ...with periodic news headlines saying "Rebels attack Brazil!!"(Israelis bulldoze apartment building in West Bank!!). The Arab on the street says "I can't believe that they did that! They had no proof that he was a involved in the attack!! **** Jews!!" ..and their life doesn't seem so bad.

Oh ..and that "kill the western society" stuff is just for the OBL types. They want power ..pure and simple.

When North Korea threatens the stability of the Asian/Pacific rim with a nuclear program ..what do we do? We calculate the costs of unseating the leadership in terms of direct costs and collateral damage. We then realize that it's far cheaper to give them aid and energy resources than it is to fight them (expand the circle a little)..and North Korea knows this. Kim wants to remain in power and so he threatens things that are very valuable to us ...we will enable his continued rule since it is cheaper to do so.

In the middle east it's a different story. None of them have any advanced military capability and we've already defeated what was (prior to the first Gulf War) arguably the 4th largest army in the world. It is cheaper for us to just topple any regimes that present any "clear and present danger" to our interests. They can not resist our military ..and the only nuclear capable nation in the ME is our ally (can you figure out why they may feel just a bit cornered??).

That's why we don't bother to develop those populations. It's not needed for the furthering of our interests ..so it's not an important issue to us. It's the same with the banana republics.

Please understand that we are the greatest nation on the planet ...but don't think that we are selfless and all giving. That "selfless and all giving" part of the USA is the first two letters -US. Our global strategic manuvering is for the gain of "some" or to shut out "others".

You gotta think outside the box here folks. Make no mistake about it ..we are into global domination. If we can not do it through normal pacification (trade,etc.) ...we do it with our military. Now is it all that "bad"??? Maybe not ..but how we achieve that dominance is something you should not assume is "proper and nice".

[ March 14, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Gary, my point was the wealthy Arab monarchies could resolve the Palestinian issue without American aid. They choose to do nothing as they can always "blame the Jews" to the Palestinians as well as their own neglected populace.

The USA is not the only country with a buck in its pocket, we're the only country willing to spend it, all motives aside.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yes, you're correct. The wealthy Arab monachies could easily give the Palestinians a gleaming society ..but only give them enough for AK-47s and bombs. Why?

Because it serves them to have "the great Zionists" beating their "brothers" ...it gives a place for the Arabs to place their displaced anxiety. The Saudis can keep their people ignorant and obedient. **** Jews!!! This is on the lips of virtually every Muslims ..arab or otherwise....

You're right ..that conflict is "used" by many.

 

[goodoleboy]

Pablo,
How do measure a punishment fitting a crime? Seems simialr to eye for an eye..I dont see how you can say that what about a person who urinates in public..What are you going to have people urinate in public to punish him.Or how about someone who commits acts of sodomy? Sodomize him for punishmnet?

His crimes happened 20 years ago, maybe he repented and became a christian, has anyone considered that?
There is a possibilty that you are asking for the death of another christian .
My point is you dont know, All i here is "kill the guy and i hope its painful"
Some people need to be eliminated from society who still pose a threat to others.Otherwise we should pay for them being in jail beucase we impose our morals upon the criminal. Not the other way around.

"The trial of Socorates" has a good example of what I am saying.

[ March 15, 2004, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: goodoleboy ]