Just another rant about GM.

brianl703 · May 11, 2005

I love Google (found this by doing a search for main relay..the problems with it are legendary):
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200112/ai_n9008273

Exorcising Asian driveability demons
Motor, Dec 2001 by Jonsson, Kerry

(Motor is a trade magazine for the auto service industry).

Some highlights from the article:

Honda/Acura

I think by now everyone is aware of Honda's distributor problems. For one thing, the bearings seem to fail, most often in Civics, Accords and Integras. This can cause the reluctor to hit the AC voltage pulse generators, or pickups, leading to a no-start.

Other components can go wrong inside a Honda/Acura distributor, as well. Coils and igniters, for example, should always be checked in instances of no-starts and ignition misfires. Here's a quick test for an igniter: With the ignition key on, check each wire on the six- or eight-pin connector at the distributor. One of these wires should have 10 to 11 volts on it. Tapping this wire with a grounded test light should induce a nice spark from the coil. (A plug wire stuck in the coil tower with a spark tester at the end of it works great for this test.)

[snip]

Also check out the main relay and ignition switch. Note that a significant voltage drop across the relay contacts may not properly power up the ECM. Pull out a wiring diagram and jump the relay to see if the engine starts. The section of the main relay that powers up the fuel pump gets its juice via the ignition switch. If a contact within the switch goes bad, you may lose voltage to the pump during or after a cranking. Try wiggling the ignition key to see if you can keep the engine running.

Sometimes the computer won't ground the fuel pump section of the main relay during a crank. To check things out, locate the green wire with the black trace and jump it to ground. If the engine now starts, you most likely have a bad ECM.

[snip]

Toyota

By now, everyone should be aware of the head gasket problems that have plagued Toyota pickups. But did you know that doing a gasket swap can lead to other problems, if you're not careful?

[snip]

The problems discussed here are the ones techs have run into most often on vehicles from Asian manufacturers. You may encounter other problems with these vehicles as they get older and more parts reach the end of their service life, but these diagnostic tips should take care of the majority of problem vehicles.

JeepZJ4.0 · May 12, 2005

Standard 2 row with plastic (i think) end tanks -$148 + $10 shipping = $158

CSF All Metal 3 row radiator -
$163+ $10 shipping = $173

Getting a two row all metal radiator from a fellow Jeeper who used it for two weeks before buying a three row -
Free

(Putting said radiator into father's (lil sister's) newer Jeep and getting the back all dirty.... Priceless)

Gotta love Jeeps. Radiator Express doesn't have a radiator for the 8.1L V8.

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

The radiator for my Mustang was $80 (at Advance Auto). Judging by the amount of crud in it, along with the external deterioration/corrosion of the fins, it was the original. It lasted 15 years. It didn't even give me any warning it was gonna go, it just started leaking after I parked it. I had been thinking about replacing it just because some of the fins were in pretty bad shape (they would crumble away if you touched them)

JHZR2 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Scooby:
Sorry to hijack the thread.

JHZR2:

I too get tired of hearing the constant Toyota bashing except for the Holy Grail Previa. Face facts, Toyota consitently makes better vehicles in "their" arena's (cars, small trucks, mini vans). Sure, Toyota isn't a factor in large trucks (YET).

The GM brand is junk status right now. They have the same problems for many years without fixing (plastic intakes). The 8.1 mentioned in this thread is a piston slapping fool.

GM better start fixing some problems fast, or they'll soon be facing the likes of the airlines. All the while Toyota, Honda and even Nissan will surge right past.

Scooby:

To each their own. I get tired of endless praise of Toyota and Honda products, when they too have their problems too. The real issue is that a GM product is a POS until proven otherwise, while a toyota is a million miler until proven otherwise. Unless youre one of the trolls that show up on this or any other board, you can only speak from personal experience, because thats all that you have that is honest and to your best knowledge - correct.

I am not trying to bash toyota because it is toyota, even as you note, Ill praise our previa forever, as it was a well-built, excellent running and driving vehicle. If my other toyota experiences were better, Id not state anything on them. I dont give 2c on fords, nissans, or any other common cars out there, that I don't have experience with. However, I do have a good deal of experience with toyotas, and so just as many go with blind faith towards the company, I spread my experience as well.

And they are:

-previa - one of the best vehicles on the road. Only an MB diesel could beat it for life cycle cost, robustness and reliability.

-corolla - my father, who drives as gently as can be, and gets 75k+ out of tires and brake pads, consistently beats MPG numbers, etc. had the radiator and shocks fail.

-Camry - my GF's mother has one of these. Sludged up doing 3k mi OCIs on quality dino. The interior has degraded and the colors have faded differrently on different parts of the dash. Overall quality is unimpressive

-Tundra - borrowed from friend, had a CEL (unknown reason) at 30k, dash was hard plastic, interiort materials were sub-gm grade.

But I won't just end there - Ill admit first hand that my S-10 ZR2 had a slight intake manifold gasket leak. Typical GM intake issues for sure. Was I happy? No sir. Will I blame GM excessively for poor product design? Certainly. But in light of my experience with the rest of the truck, my own comparisson of the interiors, with respect to other fords and toyotas that Ive been in, with respect to the reliability and maintenance costs of this truck, I cant say that its anywhere near as bad as those GM bashers would want me to believe.

Same deal with my mother's 97 Plymouth breeze. It has the 2.0L 4 cyl, and though its only used around town and on straight highway cruising, it still had the typical headgasket failure. Was she ****** ? For sure. it helped that Chrysler paid for the parts and 50% of the labor, as wellas do the timing and accessory belts for free while in there, though the car was well out of warranty. Would I have expected this from a camry? no, probably not. However, if she had a camry, Id probably expect sludge in the engine. Considering the lifecycle costs this plymouth breeze has given, and the otherwise spotless reliability, economy, and overall half decent car, its nowhere near as bad as the American car bashers would have me to believe for what is essentially a midsize economy car.

I believe that toyota is loosing quality, while the American cars are gaining it. However, the people on here seem to turn their back to the increasing American quality, and at the same time, turn their back to the decreasing Japanese quality. As an example, my GF's acura integra has 164k on it. The rubber parts are starting to go bad, the car needs repairs every now and again, etc. Her parents can get good deals on toyotas, and they suggested that she might look at the corolla, because they may buy one for her so she can get through med school with a very reliable car. Byt the end of the dealer visit and test drive, she was convinced to stick with her acura, and request some money from them to repair it rather than buy a new car. She was that unimpressed. Personally, I was impressed with an 04 civic that I drove from Delaware to Pittsburgh last fall. She might look at the civic, but all in all, she prefers the driving feel, comfort, etc that her old semi-junky acura gives. I have to agree with her. So, to each their own. In the old days of toyota, they certainly were #1. It wasnt only their previa either, but their whole line. Im just not as convinced as others that it is still the brand to buy for a super wonderful, reliable car that will never give you a bit of trouble and will give you hundreds of thousands of miles of service easily - the way they used to be. People seem to deal with whatever toyota throws at them - even if its a sludged engine or bad head gasket or whatever else, without batting an eyelash. However, they question every thing that GM ever does, without necessarily knowing the whole story. Is ther 8.1 radiator something special? I dont know, but I can guess that if its a dealer only item, there arent really any from the aftermarket, and the one that is aftermarket is priced similarly, that this isnt an ordianary radiator, and rather something that is built for higher duty, possibly with much more capacity, multiple fluid coolers built in, etc., etc. Youve got to know the whole story.

I guess Ill go home in my GM-made saab and spit on some toyotas on my way. After all, I hate toyotas and have to bash them all the time, right?

Too many toyotas to spit on, got to run!

JMH

haley10 · May 12, 2005

The Internet is a good tool when buying a car or truck. Every manufacturer makes good ones and bad ones and it's that simple. Being a brand loyalist will blind you to the reality.

Amkeer · May 12, 2005

JH,

You are forgeting that the vehicles that you spit on are made by American workers. Are designed by American workers. So when you spit on them you are actually spitting on what you think you are supporting. The American worker!

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Amkeer:
Are designed by American workers.

For some reason, I doubt that.

Amkeer · May 12, 2005

Brian,

I really don't care if you believe what I say or not. Find out for yourself.

From Toyota:

At Toyota, we view building vehicles as a community project.

We invite you to learn about where the thousands of Americans who make up Toyota live and work. Not only the individuals who sell Toyota and Lexus vehicles, but those who design, test, and manufacture our vehicles and components using many U.S. parts.

http://toyota.com/about/operations/index.html

For more than a quarter of a century, we at Toyota have relied on the talents of American designers and engineers to help ensure that our vehicles meet local tastes and standards.

» Toyota's Calty Design Research, Inc. has helped develop exterior styling concepts for Prius, Tacoma, Camry Solara, and the new Celica and new Avalon.

» Toyota Technical Center, USA (TTC), which conducts research and development, celebrated its 25th anniversary in 2002. Automotive styling designs received from Toyota's own Calty Design Studio in California, and from all around the world, are brought to life. Throughout the process, each TTC engineer is responsible for specific parts of a vehicle under development. Not only does this create a real sense of ownership for the team members, but it also creates endless opportunities to make quality vehicles.

http://toyota.com/about/operations/design-rd/index.html

http://toyota.com/about/operations/design-rd/design_loc_calty.html

http://toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/ttc/index.html

You might as well not even look at the links posted that way you won't be disappointed in your OPINIONS.

[ May 12, 2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Amkeer ]

Amkeer · May 12, 2005

Here is a little more that you might not want to look at:

http://toyota.com/about/operations/numbers/factsfigures04/direct_na_invest.html

http://toyota.com/about/operations/numbers/factsfigures04/na_sales.html

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

Where are the powertrains..the electronics..the parts that actually matter..where are they designed? EDIT: All that I see is done here is the cosmetic design. "Calty provides innovative design solutions for Toyota, Lexus and Scion vehicles and supports North American production with color, trim and wheel design." Real hard engineering science there.

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

And here are the answers to that question, all located in Japan:

Head Office Technical Center

Establishment: 1954
Activities: Planning and design of products, prototype manufacture, and vehicle evaluation Responsible for all fields including vehicle planning, design, engineering, and evaluation. In addition, the center handles such areas as safety, energy conservation and environmental technologies

Higashi-Fuji Technical Center

Establishment: 1966
Activities: Research and development of new vehicle technology and new engine technology

Toyota Central Research & Development Laboratories, Inc.

Establishment: 1960
Activities: Fundamental technical research for the Toyota Group

So the hard, real engineering work is done in Japan, and the cosmetics are left for the USA to do, logical reason for that being that Americans can better design cars that Americans like to look at.

Amkeer · May 12, 2005

Wrong again!!

Chris142 · May 12, 2005

Ok I got all the parts and got the truck put together.

All in all with new coolant (not Dexcool!), the new rad, the extra fittings, clamps and labor to disassemble the entire front end of the truck to get the rad out and back in.

Only to find out that the T-stat was stuck open! I replaced that too.

Total .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... .................................................................................................................................................................................... ......................................................$1179.58!

Steve S · May 12, 2005

I would line up all the auto engineers along with the U.S. politicians and send them to Iran and tell the Iranians they are Jewish "I am not knocking Jewish" Every car is **** poor in design for whatever reason.

buster · May 12, 2005

quote:

I would line up all the auto engineers along with the U.S. politicians and send them to Iran and tell the Iranians they are Jewish "I am not knocking Jewish" Every car is **** poor in design for whatever reason.

Yeah, you can't argue against Toyota, whatever they are doing it is working. They are a very SMART company. It's a global market. I know the NASCAR southerners still like those Monte Carlos and Impalas, but the times have changed.....do you guy's know you lost the Civil War?

Just kidding...

[ May 12, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Amkeer:
Wrong again!!

Don't roll your eyes at me, provide some evidence. What I posted above is straight from Toyota's website..you know..the one with the URL that ends in .jp

brianl703 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Chris142:
Only to find out that the T-stat was stuck open! I replaced that too.

Did you replace the radiator cap?

Chris142 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:

[qb]qb]

Did you replace the radiator cap? [/QUOTE]Nope. It's not a "normal" cap.

JHZR2 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Amkeer:
JH,

You are forgeting that the vehicles that you spit on are made by American workers. Are designed by American workers. So when you spit on them you are actually spitting on what you think you are supporting. The American worker!

I meant the whole spit on toyota thing sarcastically... I believe that toyota makes some fine products, but I think that they have some bad points too, and that was my point. One can only talk from their own experience, and so since I was accused of being a toyota basher, I simply had to explain my experiences, and show that I am not out to bash toyota for the sake of doing it, because Im 'big three all the way' and 'three sheers for the big three' or anything like that. I am just stating my observations, and explaining how Im not bashing, Im telling the story as my experiences see it, and am being equal to all the cars weve owned or used, explaining troubles Ive had with all, and successed ive had with all. Sorry you took my last line the wrong way, I was entirely kidding.

JMH

[ May 12, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

JHZR2 · May 12, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Chris142:

quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:

[qb]

Click to expand...

Did you replace the radiator cap?

Nope. It's not a "normal" cap. [/QUOTE]

Chris, this keeps on fueling my interest. First its an extremely expensive radiator, then there are lots of odd fittings, now its an odd radiator cap... Where does it end?

Since youre obviously very experienced, can you comment on any blatant differences that you see with respect to the 8.1 radiator that dont usually exist on other standard radiators? For example, is there a water/oil heat exchanger, as well as a water/ATF exchanger built into this unit? How many rows of tubes are there? Are the fins more densely packed?

Also, can you comment on the determined mode of failure? Did it just plain spring a leak, or does it look like maybe a rock hit it or something?

Thanks!

JMH

Just another rant about GM.

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