John Edwards and OBGYNs

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I have heard that Johnny boy made most of his money suing OBGYNs for cerebral palsy caused by botched birthing procedures. I have also heard that the supporting evidence for this is based on completely bunk science.
1. does anyone hear know anything regarding this?
2. I cannot stand ambulance chasers. This guy is seemingly one of a group of people that get rich off of the rest of us. Their frivolous lawsuits are paid for by the little guy, supposedly the guy that John Edwards supports.
 
quote:

Originally posted by carrera79:
I have heard that Johnny boy made most of his money suing OBGYNs for cerebral palsy caused by botched birthing procedures. I have also heard that the supporting evidence for this is based on completely bunk science.
1. does anyone hear know anything regarding this?


Sure, everything you say is 100% accurate information.

Did 'Junk Science' Make John Edwards Rich?

""Edwards always helped the little guy as long as he got a million dollars out of it"


Check out this nice Boston MA newspaper front page
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Left of Ted

Keith.
 
Somehow we need to change things in this country so that good people can get elected to political office-people who will really make a difference. Right now only rich people can obtain high political office and some of these people get rich in unsavory ways.
 
ekpolk, there is substantial evidence that this claim regarding cerebral palsy is bunk. there is currently a test that determines the existence of the defect before birth. check out the articles posted in response to your post in the "I don't hate lawyers this much" thread. If there weren't serious issues within the legal system tort reform laws would not be on the table. Should we sue McDonalds for being over weight? How about sueing oreo for having transfats? this is becoming outrageous. Remember, the more that we call upon the government to protect us from ourselves the more we lose our freedoms. BTW-in some states OBGYNs are becoming very, very scarce because they cannot bear the insurance. Is this what you propose as good?
 
quote:

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Second, overt appeals to emotion, not based upon evidence, are not allowed. A quick objection by a competent opposing lawyer will put a stop to that.

But once an emotional appeal is made, the jurors cannot strike it from their memories like hitting the backspace button. An objection will not erase it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by mormit:

quote:

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Second, overt appeals to emotion, not based upon evidence, are not allowed. A quick objection by a competent opposing lawyer will put a stop to that.

But once an emotional appeal is made, the jurors cannot strike it from their memories like hitting the backspace button. An objection will not erase it.


You're absolutely correct. Once such a situation happens, the complaining party can then ask for a mistrial if it/they feel the damage is sufficiently severe. Mistrials are not that commonly granted, but if the error is flagrant enough, the judge will grant the motion. I've actually seen mistrials in a half-dozen or so of the several dozen jury trials I've done (none, I hasten to add, because of something I did...).

My favorite description of this problem is that it's like tossing a dead skunk into the jury box and then asking the jurors to unsmell it. If the stink is bad enough, you get a new jury. Costly but effective.
 
quote:

Originally posted by carrera79:
ekpolk, there is substantial evidence that this claim regarding cerebral palsy is bunk. there is currently a test that determines the existence of the defect before birth. check out the articles posted in response to your post in the "I don't hate lawyers this much" thread. If there weren't serious issues within the legal system tort reform laws would not be on the table. Should we sue McDonalds for being over weight? How about sueing oreo for having transfats? this is becoming outrageous. Remember, the more that we call upon the government to protect us from ourselves the more we lose our freedoms. BTW-in some states OBGYNs are becoming very, very scarce because they cannot bear the insurance. Is this what you propose as good?

A couple problems I see with this: First, the defense in these cases has ample opportunity to have a pre-trial hearing at which both sides get to make a case about whether or not challenged evidence of any sort should be allowed to go to the jury (often referred to as a Frye or Daubert hearing, depending upon which test your state uses). In effect, the parties get to put their evidence on trial before the real trial of the case. The trial judge then decides whether or not the jury will ever see the evidence. After trial, an appellate court may review the evidentiary decision, if asked to do so. I'm not a med-mal lawyer, but I've heard both sides of this one. My guess, and it's just that is that someof these cases are the docs fault and some are not, but thankfully, I'm not called upon to make that decision. You're entitled to your opinion.

Second, the situations you cite as support for the proposition that litigation is out of control are a miniscule fraction of what is really going on in our courts. For every McDonalds obesity or Oreo transfat case (I agree, those are absurd), I can easily muster hundreds of examples of cases where some guy gets in a wreck that's not his fault, has $10k in medical bills, $10k in lost income and the at-fault insurer (with a $100k policy limit) offers a grand total of $8-12k to settle. The adjuster basically tells you F-you, it'll cost you the difference to collect in court so that's all we'll pay unless a court tells us otherwise. This is the day-to-day reality that leads to 95% of actual personal injury litigation; it's not as if the courthouses are packed with fat blobs who just decided to blame their obesity on Mickey-Ds.

No, the system is not perfect, but it's nowhere near broken in the way that the insurance companies would like you to believe it is. Ironically, where tort "reform" seems to be taking us is to a system of little, if any, true accountability. Once the courthouse doors are locked shut, I can in effect run you over with impunity. Should I be able to cause you six-figure medical bills, six-figure income losses, and then walk away and say, "sorry, that's your problem"??? This is where tort "reform" is going; it's not about McDonalds fat boy cases.
 
quote:

Originally posted by labman:

quote:

Originally posted by needtoknow:
I think a read of this link is in order.
http://www.citizen.org/publications/articles.cfm?ID=7225&relatedpages=1&catID=106&secID=1720


I don't think reading any of your liberal claptrap links is in order. Jackals like Edwards are killing this country.


Hold on a minute. If you refuse to even read them, how can you tell that what's there is "liberal claptrap." A bit of prejudice (as in pre-judging), perhaps? And resorting to simple name-calling doesn't lend much credibility to the argument either, but to continue with it a bit, my experience has taught me that this breed of greedy "Jackal" exists only because of the far greater greed of the insurance companies. Again, if insurers treated people with claims even close to fairly, the simple rules of supply and demand would have these Jackals doing corporate mergers or real estate transactions instead.
 
quote:

Originally posted by needtoknow:
Ekpolk, What's your take on this article from the CATO Institute?

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv14n4/reg14n4-newhouse.html


It's an interesting stab at a topic that's so complex that to do it justice from any perspective would require a book, not an article of this length. While again, I'm not a med-mal lawyer, I do have a couple observations.

First, patients are inevitably going to get hurt by medical errors, sometimes very badly so. The question then becomes who is going to be responsible to pay the resulting costs. We as a society have to decide who will bear these costs and how. If the lawyer haters ultimately get their way, these costs are not going to go away, they are just going to fall to the taxpayers or the health insurance premium payers. Personally, I prefer a system that puts responsibility on the shoulders of the person who causes the injury (or the insurance company paid to bear this risk). If we as a society do decide to go with some form of no-accountability system, we just need to understand that the cost will still be there, it will just get shifted to someone else.

Second, one thing the article missed is that insurance companies factor a lot of non-claims related matters into their premium structure. In particular, they often seek to increase rates when their corporate investment returns don't come in as well as they'd like. So, an increase in premiums is not an indicator that claims paid are out of control, rather, you need to dig and see what's really behind the decision to increase rates (which will always be blamed on, of course, the lawyers).

Third, doctors have already had great success in getting the system tweaked to their liking. In the end, these tweaks don't solve the real problem, which is that they still make mistakes. Florida is a great example. In order to file a malpractice suit against a doctor, you first have to go through what's called the "pre-suit screening process." In effect, you have to litigate a mini lawsuit to prove your that you have the right to file your real suit. The net effect has been that all small and many medium-sized malpractice cases are now dead on arrival as a matter of economics, not justice.

As an example, let's say your doc messes up an operation, and to correct his error requires another $15,000 surgery, and you are out of work for six months, thus loosing another $35,000, so your total economic losses alone are roughly $50,000.

This case will never see the light of day. Your doc will tell you to pack sand and so will his insurance company. They will because they know that the cost of presuit screening and trial will eat up so much of your damages that it won't be worth any lawyer's time to prosecute your case because they'd lose money doing so.

Is this the way things should be? We can have our opinions about that. Just remember that this money WILL come from somewhere. Either the victim's health carrier, if he still has one, will pay (so they just got forced into the role of paying for the doc's malpractice) or the taxpayers will foot the bill for indigent medical expense and probably welfare and unemployment benefits as well.

So what's worse, accountability or the lack thereof???
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Edwards is a decent guy. I think he is genuinely a good person. Don't agree with his poltics on many issues, but I think he is more trust worthy then Cheney.
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Keith, can you be any more biased and righ wing? I can't find any objective people anymore. Everyone has their own little agenda. What a shame....
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:
Edwards is a decent guy. I think he is genuinely a good person. Don't agree with his poltics on many issues, but I think he is more trust worthy then Cheney.
rolleyes.gif
Keith, can you be any more biased and righ wing? I can't find any objective people anymore. Everyone has their own little agenda. What a shame....


As I said in another post, there are democrats who get my vote (Joe Lieberman) because he is a decent moderate guy and, perhaps because he is a Jew, understands better than most that you can't ignore people that are dedicated to killing us all. Joe actually has positions that were mainstream democrat in the 1960's, but he looks like a right winger next to Daschle, Pelosi, Gephardt, Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Hillary and the rest. Is Joe Lieberman now a right winger by your standards? Must be a badge of honor.

I happen to like tax cuts because they limit the power of government.

Bush has made some horrendous mistakes in my view (prescription drug medicare boondoggle, steel tariffs, hispandering, ...) but is a LEADER and doesn't wait for France to give permission. I would say a "biased" person is one that blindly supports a party or person or ideology and doesn't study all sides of an argument before coming to a position.

The two issues that will get my vote in November are taxes (which is the major way a government can impact the economy) and removing terrorists. Everything else is small beer by comparison. Kerry/Edwards WILL increase your taxes, WILL increase spending by more than the new tax revenues, and their position on Iraq (voted for before voting against) is not confidence inspiring to put it kindly.

Other folks will obviously go to the polls with different priorities. They must be "biased" too I guess. Vive la difference!

Keith.
 
Keith:

You make some good points there, although sadly, by now you'd hope Americans in general wouldn't need to be Jews to understand what it means to have people earnestly want to kill you just because of race/ethnicity/national origin.

Now let me come back to the original hijacked topic
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, and complicate this some more. While Labman probably has me fixed as a "liberal," I'm actually pretty consistently conservative. Fiscal and personal responsibility are biggies for me. This is where taxation and torts circle back and meet one another. It really bothers me to know that a substantial part of the taxes I pay to to provide public benefits to people who should be cared for by the people who put them in a position of need. I feel the same way about health insurance premiums that end up covering injuries that should have been paid for by the party that caused them (or that party's insurer). This is why we, as a society, need good aggressive lawyers pursuing the right cases, not artificial tort "deform." I want the taxes I pay to go for the public good, not cover for irresponsible insurance companies that don't want to honor their contracts.

I suspect that you and I will continue to disagree about many aspects of this cluster of issues. I do, however, appreciate that you have made an obvious effort to state your opinions with respect and dignity. That so many members do the same is part of why BITOG is such a great forum.
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I think the effort to defend John Edwards and trial lawyers demonstrates the absolute moral bankruptcy of the Democratic Party. As long as the candidates promise to take care of my special interest, I will hold my nose and vote for them. Of course, I had little doubt of their morals after not one democratic Senator voted to remove a President that lied under oath.

As far as harm from medical mistakes goes, do we want to punish the guilty, or fix the problem? This has been going on for quite some time and things seem to be getting no better. Obviously the current system is badly broken. You have people like John Edwards getting filthy rich, while nothing is being done to fix the problem.
 
Our advocates in the legal system, the judges, are biased to the interests of the legal profession as they are attorneys as well.

This is at the core of the problem.

Mr. Edwards has done nothing illegal, personal feelings aside. I'll be interested in what he has to say if he can bring ideas to the discussion and is not just providing a hatchet.
 
quote:

Originally posted by labman:
You have people like John Edwards getting filthy rich, while nothing is being done to fix the problem.

Ordinarily financial incentives (and disincentives) will fix a problem, so we might think that the system will right itself. That it has not, and is getting worse, is an indication that legislative reform is needed.

We don't need to dig into the fine details, as interesting and educational as that is, it is clear from afar.

Now let's get back to regularly scheduled programming. Wish I had something to say about oil.

Keith.
 
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