Jet Fuel, $11.37/gal in NY and other rambling aviation thoughts.

[Cujet]

At what fuel price would the owner stop flight operations ?

For me, the prices have reached criticality. I have not had a raise since 2012, own a 177RG and now can't afford to feed my pickup truck to drive to the airport, not to mention, do much flying.

In my company's flight department, my boss' stock is not doing well, we are not doing much flying. One short trip in the last 2 months. When it costs $75,000 to "top off" a 12 passenger plane, something is very, very wrong.

Our way of life has come to a screeching halt.

 

[billt460]

When it costs $75,000 to "top off" a 12 passenger plane, something is very, very wrong. Our way of life has come to a screeching halt.

Imagine the major airlines. This has to be their worst nightmare..... And right after Covid.

 

[Dave Hess]

Do you plan on selling your 177RG ?

Is your employer winding down flight operations if they have to pay pilots and mechanics salaries while jet gets little flight time ?

We are in big trouble if things keep getting worse by the day.

 

[Cujet]

Do you plan on selling your 177RG ?

Is your employer winding down flight operations if they have to pay pilots and mechanics salaries while jet gets little flight time ?

We are in big trouble if things keep getting worse by the day.

I don't think our flight department is shutting down. But would be OK if we did. I've had my health problems and am really ready to retire. I'm still getting paid, but no raise since 2012. My personal unreimbursed business expenses are epic.




I've been wanting to sell the plane for many years. I don't love it despite the fact that it is in good shape. I'm so spoiled flying far better equipment, that it is nothing more than a let-down to me. In particular, it is underpowered so climb rates are 300FPM at sea level on hot and heavy days. Plus wing loading is 16 pounds per sq foot (at max gross) lower at my typ operational weights. That's so low that even modest gusting results in spine crushing "felt" turbulence and despite its very responsive flight controls, it is truly a handful on normal hot FL days.

I don't mind modest turb at all. But when it's an hours long fight to remain upright, while uncomfortably yawing about, it becomes annoying. I do not have an autopilot.

I would much prefer a turbo Mooney. Higher wing loading, faster through turb, more stable, capable of climbing out of the rough air.

 

[RhondaHonda]

For me, the prices have reached criticality. I have not had a raise since 2012, own a 177RG and now can't afford to feed my pickup truck to drive to the airport, not to mention, do much flying.

In my company's flight department, my boss' stock is not doing well, we are not doing much flying. One short trip in the last 2 months. When it costs $75,000 to "top off" a 12 passenger plane, something is very, very wrong.

Our way of life has come to a screeching halt.

No raise in 10 years? I’m pretty sure I know who your boss is and I imagine the payroll to fund his lifestyle is pretty high but **** that stinks.

 

[Cujet]

No raise in 10 years? I imagine the payroll to fund his lifestyle is pretty high but that stinks.

I'm paid well, or at least I was. With things I spend money on costing double what they did, I'm falling behind fast and my lifestyle is grinding to a halt. Quite simply, I'm old, unhealthy and just not doing as much work as I used to. Mostly because I can't.

The other issue is as I mentioned, are my unreimbursed business expenses, + my need to have 2 homes, one in FL and one up North. That was one thing when costs were reasonable. Not today.

But please understand, I know these are not really valid complaints. It has been an amazing and fun ride. An old high school contact recently said Quote: "Sounds like you are doing what you always wanted to do!"

Yes!

 

[Joe1]

The NY airports are notorious for "mafia-like" behavior. I really despise dealing with them. When I need line service to assist me, such as to pull an aircraft out for a compressor wash, the line-guys have an unspoken minimum cash "reward" of $50 or $60. Otherwise they sit on their chairs, drinking coffee and utterly refuse to do their job. Infuriating.

To make matters works, that cash "reward" is unknown to customers. Give them $40, when they want $60 and nothing happens, you only get well rehearsed excuses as to why they can't pull the plane out. Such as "we got busy", or "that cargo plane came in".

Yes, they are nice enough when the $100 bills are flowing. But good god, NY is tough to take.

Do you ever fly into Teterboro (TEB)? If so, is a cash "reward" needed to get things done there? I pass by that airport frequently and was just curious.

 

[wpod]

That is the small operator price. We all help finance the cheap Jet A for the airlines, with our over priced fuel. If airlines paid that for fuel a ticket price for a 500 mile trip would cost $10,000.

Travelers should pay the costs. Remember Aircraft is a Latin word meaning expensive.

 

[GON]

Travelers should pay the costs. Remember Aircraft is a Latin word meaning expensive

Lots of subsidization in the airline business. The federal government primarily, and many local governments pay airlines to fly to many airports.

 

[Astro14]

Travelers should pay the costs. Remember Aircraft is a Latin word meaning expensive.

The Airlines are a huge cash cow for governments, local, state, and federal.

There is no fuel subsidy, but there are taxes on fuel, taxes on tickets, taxes on passenger enplanement, landing fees, use fees, taxes on gates, and others.

Passengers pay for all of them.

General aviation rides on the back of airlines, who paid for technology improvements, airspace and air traffic systems, and navigation aids, through all those taxes.

 

[Astro14]

Lots of subsidization in the airline business. The federal government primarily, and many local governments pay airlines to fly to many airports.

Because those airports are unprofitable.

If there wasn’t a subsidy to fly there, lots of small cities wouldn’t have air service. There just aren't enough passengers.

 

[billt460]

Astro,

If Jet-A doubled in cost, (which it already has in many places), what percentage would that drive up ticket prices? Is it one to one, or doesn't it work that way?

 

[GON]

Astro,

If Jet-A doubled in cost, (which it already has in many places), what percentage would that drive up ticket prices? Is it one to one, or doesn't it work that way?

Great question.

AA's Chairman, Doug Parker made out like a bandit over the past two decades leading US Air and American Airlines by not hedging fuel. Seems every time fuel went up, an airline he was leading was in bankruptcy, thus shielding his airline indirectly from rising fuel costs. He saved billions of dollars by "rolling the dice" not hedging fuel.

Interesting enough, Doug Parkers lieutenant of 20 plus years, Scott Kirby now leads United Airlines. I have no idea if Scott's fuel hedge strategy is the same of his mentor Doug Parker.

The most profitable USA airline over the past 30 years (an airline I have never flown) is Southwest airlines. Southwest strategy for the past three decades was to hedge their fuel. When fuel was cheap, Southwest's was unable to take advantage of the fuel price drop. When fuel went high, while most USA airlines lost money operationally, Southwest generated a profit.

 

[Number_35]

Astro,

If Jet-A doubled in cost, (which it already has in many places), what percentage would that drive up ticket prices? Is it one to one, or doesn't it work that way?

Refer to Post #17, earlier in this thread - Astro14 had said that fuel comprised about 1/3 of an airline's operating cost, and that the recent doubling of fuel costs had led to a corresponding 35% increase in ticket prices, so it looks like increases in fuel costs are passed on directly to the passengers.

 

[Number_35]

In 1990 a credible media person asked what turned out to be a trick question: How much money have all of the US airlines made together, all-time, since their inception around 1920?

The answer was that by 1990 they had collectively lost $4B.

Assuming that this was correct then, I wonder how things are now. There have been a number of bankruptcies and buyouts since then. The industry has certainly gotten leaner - is it also more profitable now?

Bear in mind, as well, that though some giants (like Pan Am) had failed, there must have been some airlines that were profitable.

 

[RhondaHonda]

Great question.

AA's Chairman, Doug Parker made out like a bandit over the past two decades leading US Air and American Airlines by not hedging fuel. Seems every time fuel went up, an airline he was leading was in bankruptcy, thus shielding his airline indirectly from rising fuel costs. He saved billions of dollars by "rolling the dice" not hedging fuel.

Interesting enough, Doug Parkers lieutenant of 20 plus years, Scott Kirby now leads United Airlines. I have no idea if Scott's fuel hedge strategy is the same of his mentor Doug Parker.

The most profitable USA airline over the past 30 years (an airline I have never flown) is Southwest airlines. Southwest strategy for the past three decades was to hedge their fuel. When fuel was cheap, Southwest's was unable to take advantage of the fuel price drop. When fuel went high, while most USA airlines lost money operationally, Southwest generated a profit.

Never, ever flown Southwest Airlines?!? That’s impressive. Any particular reason?

 

[GON]

Never, ever flown Southwest Airlines?!? That’s impressive. Any particular reason?

No reason I have not flown Southwest, other than I fly to a lot of regional airports, and Southwest does not fly to most of those. On Thursday I am flying SEA - FAY, just one example of a route Southwest does not offer.

I love that Southwest has no charge for checked luggage, and I believe Southwest has more leg room in economy than most of their competitors. My Daughter flies Southwest and likes the airline. All indications Southwest is a great airline for many Americans. \

I know Astro shared some not so good thoughts on Southwest having such big buying power at Boeing that Boeing made the 737 MAX, rather than a new narrow body mainline aircraft, to keep Southwest happy. Southwest's fleet is exclusively Boeing 737. They may be one of the very top operators worldwide of 737s.

 

[Cujet]

Do you ever fly into Teterboro (TEB)? If so, is a cash "reward" needed to get things done there? I pass by that airport frequently and was just curious.

Teterboro and the local mafia is where all of this started.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Cujet, are you a pilot?

 

[PimTac]

Meanwhile, All Nippon Airways restarts their Narita to Honolulu flights with the flying turtle A380s. Each plane can carry 520 passengers.


I’ll bet that flight is not cheap.

ANA resumes A380 superjumbo flights on Narita-Honolulu route - The Mainichi

TOKYO (Kyodo) -- All Nippon Airways Co. on Friday resumed operations of its Airbus A380 superjumbo passenger jets on its Narita-Honolulu route, after

mainichi.jp