Is this true? More Freq. oil chg = more wear

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I've seen 30,000 kilometers oci. Now 30k miles, maybe in perfect scenario (long highway runs) with a bypass filters, or the soot, ahh, the soot... Now gasoline is another animal with higher ppm of S, using lower ZDDP (as antioxidant) and most of the time lower TBN oils too.
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In the end, the risk of extra wear from too frequent oil changes is moot, since engines seldom wear out before the rest of the vehicle. Changing the oil too infrequently, however, can allow failure of some critical parts, not necessarily from wear, but from sludging/sticking, long before the rest of the vehicle turns back into iron oxide and bauxite. Not changing your oil early is less risky than too late. Just sayin'.
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Please do not make blanket statements for All Users on any forum ... It's obvious you think you have discovered some tablets from heaven. You have something to learn yet ...
Bruno - he didn't make the last boldened statement - either ( though it reads that way) that too was lifted from the TDI forum or ... whatever place. I don't feel this forum require too much delicacy in post or response anymore - this is not NORIA professional forum, this is a "team player" free for all with just a handful of qualified responses mostly parroted by laymen - as you probably already have seen and know smile
Found this on another forum, is there any merit to this???? The 1st sentence above appears to be the OP's only original input to this thread.
Whilst what the OP says is correct, I would point out that extending an OCI beyond the manufacturers recommended max limit only makes sense if you get a UOA done. My own TDI produces a lower figure for Iron (On a per km basis) from a 17K km OCI than a 10K km one, which was a big surprise to me. Although it's difficult to know if the improved figures result from an increase in the efficiency of the oil filter as it gets dirty, or the reduction in the new oil detergents vs old old anti wear layer game. In terms of the minimum TBN that is acceptable when extending an OCI, I disagree with Blackstones figure of just 1. I'm in the one third of original TBN camp, as it's much safer to err on the side of cleanliness. UOA results do not show too well if long term deposits are starting to build up, so I prefer to see a TBN figure that indicates the detergents will still be active.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
In the end, the risk of extra wear from too frequent oil changes is moot, since engines seldom wear out before the rest of the vehicle. Changing the oil too infrequently, however, can allow failure of some critical parts, not necessarily from wear, but from sludging/sticking, long before the rest of the vehicle turns back into iron oxide and bauxite. Not changing your oil early is less risky than too late. Just sayin'.
That is the point. I saw few months ago 2001 VW Passat with 1.8T engine and 378K miles on it. That engine is notorious for sludge if not filled with proper synthetic oils (Euro oils). OCI always done every 5K. original turbo on the engine.
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No one really cares anyway. Oil changing is something most people can do and often their limit of mechanical ability allows them to do little more. Everybody has their secret sauce and theories. They are going to do what they do. Evidence be d-amned... Oil and filters are pretty inexpensive... why treat them like gold!!!!
I did not write this. I found it on another forum related to TDI's. I was simply asking for some expert advice on whether this has any merit. I change my oil every 5k miles and am wondering if I am doing more harm than if I changed it every 10k miles. BTW, I have had a MANN oil filter collapse and come apart sometime before a 5k mile change, so even if I could go with 10k oil changes, I think I will stay with 5k filter changes. Sorry if I offended anyone.
------------------------------------------------------------- Nice! [/quote] Kindly bloviate elsewhere. [/quote] bloviate [bloh-vee-eyt] verb (used without object), bloviated, bloviating. 1. to speak pompously
It can also be said less that frequent oil changes can lead to a dirty, varnish laden, sludgy, worn out engine. hide It depends, blanket statements can get you in trouble sometimes..................
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: KGMtech
Interesting. I personally think that oil filters could revert to changing every other oil change. The more the media is loaded, the better the catch....well until the filter goes into bypass mode...but that is a rare situation for most cars.
I went to 2X filter intervals several years ago. I am happy with it.
Not as rare as you think in cold climates.
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
The Porsche brochures several years ago said the same when I was looking at a Cayman. OCI was 30K miles. The salesman said that it was a typo smile
How big is the sump on that vehicle?
Originally Posted By: AudiTDI
Found this on another forum, is there any merit to this???? The ORIGINAL factory APPROVED oil change interval is 30,000 miles! YES 30,000 MILES!! Did you comprehend that? THE ORGINAL OIL CHANGE INTERVAL APPROVAL IS 30,000 MILES!!! Now that I have that off my chest, VW reduced the interval from 30,000 miles to 10,000 miles in the US market...any guesses why? Because people like you either: 1) Can't read the owners manual 2) Don't trust the car makers 3) Can't follow directions 4) Fail to adhere to the service indicator in the car VW does NOT want oil change intervals of less than 10,000 miles due to how the oils function in the engine, shorter intervals INCREASE WEAR, Don't argue with me about it, if you take the time to track wear rates during an oil change at 250 mile intervals you can plot the reduction and stabilization of the wear rates out beyond 25,000 miles! Think of oil as having 2 types of wear reducing additives, the first provides protection by/thru detergancy (cleansing of internal surfaces), dispersing soot, neutralizing acids (not an issue now with ULSD), and several other types as well. These additives are generally very specific to diesel engines and must pass specific tests in VW Diesel engines. The next type of additive is a wear additive. These protect the engine where the thickness of oil may be too thin to prevent metal to metal contact. Other additves in this type range also provide protection to the cam and lifters, engine bearings, piston wrist pins etc. Now pay attention, the 2nd group of additives account for less than 3% of the total volume of the oil. These additives also account for 90% of the engines oil protection! These additives require heat and pressure to bond with the critical wear surfaces, but due to the low percentage of additive in the oil they require time to fully place on those surfaces by the pressures of the component they are protecting. Example, an engine at operating temperature at the point where the cam presses on the lifter generates in excess of 90,000 psi, that pressure and the heat of the engine causes the 3% portion of the 1 micron thick oil film to form a crust or sacrifical layer at the point of contact. Since only 3% of the oil contains the wear additives, it requires hundreds of thousands of passes to generate a sufficient film to stop the wear at this specific point in the engine. Everybody is quick to make the arguement that the old oil had these additives so they are already in place, right? not quite! Remember the first type of additive? In that 1st group you had "detergents" that cleanse the inside of the motor. These cleansers are used up very rapidly after an oil change since they attack the remaining oil that was left after the oil change. These cleansers if you will also reduce the effectiveness of the high pressure wear additives...See where this is going? Before explaining further, after that initial period the dispersants in the oil work to prevent the adhering of the particles in the oil to any of the internal surfaces. These additives are often unique to diesel engines are also the reason why the oil looks so black so quickly, they are doing their job by preventing the soot from building up in any one place instead they are dispersed in the oil evenly throughout the oil sump which prevents sludging and other contamination related issues. Back to the detergents and the high pressure additives, the layers of high pressure additives leftover are not being replenished after the oil change due to the cleaning process that is going on with the new oil to neutralize the remaining acids, and other contaminants in the engine. As the cleaners in the oil are used up in the first 500-1000 miles, the wear additives are able to re-generate a protective layer in the engine that stops the wear at that location. You break down the oils life cycle like this: Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles. Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles. Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles. Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles? -------------------------------------------------------------- When somebody says they are going to change the oil every 5000 miles or twice as often they are DOUBLING the number of detergent cycles and DOUBLING the number of cycles where the engine is running at it's highest wear rates! PPM/Fe (generation of Fe in 1000 mile increments) Short drain intervals 1K oil change 10ppm = 10ppm in 1000 miles = 10ppm/1000 miles 3K oil change 10+2+2 = 14ppm in 3000 miles = 4.6ppm/1000 miles 5K oil change 10+2+2+2+2: Change oil = 18ppm in 5000 miles = 3.6ppm/1000 miles Long drain intervals 10K oil change 10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3 = 29 ppm in 10,000 miles = 2.9ppm/1000 miles 15K oil change 10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 44ppm in 15,000 miles = 2.9 ppm/1000 miles 20K oil change 10+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+4+4 = 61ppm in 20,000 miles = 3.3ppm/1000 miles When ppm of Fe per 1000 miles reaches 5-7ppm per 1000 miles you can consider the oil ready for a change... The above is based on real world TDI oil samples. I have personally used up to 25,000 mile oil drain intervals on my TDI and still never reached the 5-7ppm range! I changed it at that time due to soot and TBN depletion (high sulfur fuel at the time). Anybody that tells you that short oil drain intervals are good for your motor don't know what they are talking about!
Grind your axe elsewhere.
that article needs to be tied to the Motor Oil University . Just more facts for the readers to learn from.
All this depends on the engine & what's inside it-for instance, my wife's buzz box xB shears oil badly, & rapidly, due to it's timing chain, VVTi, & too low gearing-UOA showed M1 AFE 0W30 done at 7K, & M1 EP 5W30 in upper 20 weight zone @ 10K. But on a clean, timing belt (or short chain) engine, with a high quality synthetic, in Europe with their LOW SULFUR gasoline, it's possible. I bet my Cummins could do 25-30K on Delvac 1 with it's Venturi filter, if I ever drove it enough to do that mileage in a year-but NEVER without UOAs!!
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Grind your axe elsewhere.
Hershey whats your issue with the OP. He did apologise if offended in the post. Having a bad day ?
[quote=AudiTDI]Found this on another forum, is there any merit to this???? WWF It seems some of the members here suffer from oil-roid rage. This was the first line in his post. Apparently he thought he could join BITOG and ask experienced members what they thought about this. Little did he know oil aficionado's never read the first line of a post, and eagerly skip to the "meat" of the matter. Stick around young AudiTDI, your oil knowledge will grow and you will become more formidable when attacked. fence Make friends with several opinionated posters, and never engage in a fight you can't win. Play possum if you must. Advice to new inmates also applies here. spank In prison, they don't use a stick.......
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