Is the truck based SUV dead?

[Zedhed]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
The car based ones are HOT, I have been searching for an early VUE as they don't make minivans with inline 4s and 5 speed stick shifts anymore. C4C swallowed all the mid 90s explorers with solid axles and 15 MPG, and IMO the drivers are gobbling up all the cute utes so they can stay sitting above traffic. (and driving poorly to compensate for the great view, eg, texting.)

The darn VUEs are going for over kbb, and I never pay even near that.


Why does it have to be a VUE? When people find out you have no alternative -- pricing increases. Car salesmen love to hear you will only buy a Honda/Toyota, they know will not walk away as quickly.

 

[miraCRD]

Originally Posted By: gtx510
don't serious offroaders also want a solid axle up front?


Bingo! Yes they do, but trucks with these are really disappearing. My 80 Series Land Cruisers are solid axle front and rear, but even the Land Cruisers went to IFS in 1998 (for the USA market). I think the Jeep Wranglers are still solid front axle.

The American market in particular seems to want the better ride that independent suspension gives you. Not me though. I'll keep my solid axles and body-on-frame construction, thanks.

 

[Dualie]

i was sad when the solid front axle started disappearing. Never thought i would see the day that a solid rear axle would be rare.

ALSO if you plan on towing anything with your UTILITY VEHICLE a solid rear axle is the best option.

I started saying this several years back "if you cant lift it, its a car"

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Zedhed
Originally Posted By: eljefino
The car based ones are HOT, I have been searching for an early VUE as they don't make minivans with inline 4s and 5 speed stick shifts anymore. C4C swallowed all the mid 90s explorers with solid axles and 15 MPG, and IMO the drivers are gobbling up all the cute utes so they can stay sitting above traffic. (and driving poorly to compensate for the great view, eg, texting.)

The darn VUEs are going for over kbb, and I never pay even near that.


Why does it have to be a VUE? When people find out you have no alternative -- pricing increases. Car salesmen love to hear you will only buy a Honda/Toyota, they know will not walk away as quickly.


Ok it can also be an Escape, maybe, if they made them back in 2002-03. If they're big enough inside. I want inline 4 and a stick shift. Minivans don't do it anymore, the last one of those was the caravan, 1994 vintage. In the price range I'm shopping ($2k

) Domestic brands are where it's at. And I'm not likely shopping at a dealer and have a pretty good poker face.

Midsize wagons also don't have the I-4. I'd take an 80s Volvo but they're all rotted out. Saturn L-series sedans have ecotec, nice, but the wagons have that oddball Opel 3 liter V6. On and on it goes.

I have big plans, depreciation-wise, for the Equinox and other GM unibody SUVs, but the VUE is the oldest, and as an orphaned brand, you'd think they'd get cheap. Would consider an Aztek but only 3.4 v6/Auto, which is in my Silhouette right now.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: eljefino


I have big plans, depreciation-wise, for the Equinox and other GM unibody SUVs, but the VUE is the oldest, and as an orphaned brand, you'd think they'd get cheap. Would consider an Aztek but only 3.4 v6/Auto, which is in my Silhouette right now.



Well, maybe.

I just checked KBB and it claims the 2009 Torrent and Solstice are worth more than I paid new for them, and the '08 G8 is within a thousand bucks of what I paid new. Cars don't appreciate, so that can't possibly be true, but the orphaned brands may not take much of a hit, if any, in the marketplace.

Personally, I think KBB grossly overstates the retail value of used cars and understates the trade in; NADA or even Black Book is more accurate. I only looked at KBB because you referenced it.

When I had my used car lot debacle, NADA was all I went by.

edit: I saw a Saturn with Maine plates in town the other afternoon, and the first thing I thought of was that Eljefino had come south to scarf up our Saturns!

 

[440Magnum]

I don't know that having a frame matters all that much. The Jeep XJ (Cherokee) was probably one of the most off-road capable SUVs ever, and pretty much created the compact SUV class. It was a unibody, nothing "truck based" about it at all.

What made it so capable was its robustness- it was a very solidly built unibody with less flex than most body-on-frame SUVs, it had a tank of an engine (the 4.0 inline 6), stout transfer case options, and it had solid axles at both ends with great articulation, particularly in the front with the leading-arm /coil spring setup.

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

Grand Cherokees have had IFS since 1999.

 

[CaspianM]

Neither the Xterra is due for an overhall next year nor the FJ is being discontinued.But all SUV's with sub par MPG's are going to have hard time to make it in near future.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Win

edit: I saw a Saturn with Maine plates in town the other afternoon, and the first thing I thought of was that Eljefino had come south to scarf up our Saturns!


LOL all I need to do is hit your junkyards for the engine cradles/ subframes, the parts that rust out first. Can fit 4-5 in the back of my wagon.

Kbb is a reference to which I apply my own bias; they don't take off enough for high mileage IMO and I try to pay 50% of average-to-good trade-in. It's kind of why I'm suprised VUEs are going for over KBB.

 

[VNTS]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

Grand Cherokees have had IFS since 1999.


Wrong, 99-04 WJ have solid Dana 30 Axles up front. And unlike most of the useless cute utes are actually very light due to the extensive use of aluminum. My fully dresses out 02 WJ with 4.7, leather, pwr seats, sunroof tipped the scales at transfer station at 3960 lbs with full tank of gas. A lot of the small crosovers are approaching 3600 lbs without a real transfer case.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: VNTS
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

Grand Cherokees have had IFS since 1999.


Wrong, 99-04 WJ have solid Dana 30 Axles up front. And unlike most of the useless cute utes are actually very light due to the extensive use of aluminum. My fully dresses out 02 WJ with 4.7, leather, pwr seats, sunroof tipped the scales at transfer station at 3960 lbs with full tank of gas. A lot of the small crosovers are approaching 3600 lbs without a real transfer case.


Yup. My Expedition was 6,148lbs when it was on the scales.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Well, you still have the Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban/Yukon XL and Escalades.

They aren't going anywhere soon...to the dismay of "some" around here.


Personally, I don't much care whether they come or go -- not a foreseeable part of my transport mission. As for others, that's up to them. That said, I would think that with recent fuel price instability, the "frivolous ownership" segment of the market for the larger truck-SUVs will gradually wither.

Are they "dead"? I too strongly doubt that. They have a place. Now whether it makes sense to drive one as a status symbol, well, y'all answer that for yourselves as you see fit. Uh-oh, here it comes, I just couldn't resist goading GMBoy a little

-- with gas prices headed only one way, what's sillier -- driving a Suburban as a status symbol* or driving a Prius as a status symbol???

* If you actually do tow a boat or camper, or move a lot of cargo, of course, that's different.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

Grand Cherokees have had IFS since 1999.


I think you're wrong on the date. The WJ version ran from 98 to 2004, and I KNOW it has a solid front axle, just like the ZJ before it.

The WK Grand Cherokee is the one in question- 2005 to present

Did some looking around, and it does appear to be IFS.

Poseur.

OK, maybe I'm being a little harsh- you can do semi-decent offroad with a well-designed IFS, but its never as good as a solid axle unless you go all-out with geared hubs ala the H1.

I guess we real Jeep fans will have to cling to the Wrangler since over the last 8 years they've killed the Cherokee in favor of Barbie's Li'l Liberty and luxurified the Grand Cherokee beyond anyone's desire to actually take it offroad.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
My mom chose the Jeep GC over several Car based vehicles because she said the GC felt more solid.

GC-Body on frame
Others-unibody

Mom never goes off road, and has 2wd.


Nope- the Grand Cherokee and Cherokee (which, as I've said before, are two of the most capable SUVs ever) are both fully unibody. That's WHY they feel more solid than the body-on-frame SUVs. Body-on-frame is very tough, but is actually relatively flexible compared to unibody (if you don't believe that, ride in the bed of a pickup truck as it goes down a rough dirt road and watch the cab move relative to the bed where because of the frame flex. Unibody is more rigid, but lighter and less desirable for carrying extremely heavy loads or towing heavy loads (which is why there are no unibody pickups- the Ridgeline notwithstanding since its a joke, not a truck

) In other words, unibody is great for an offroad vehicle that doesn't carry a huge payload.

 

[01rangerxl]

I think truck based SUVs are becoming a niche vehicle and will probably stay that way.

They were originally truck-based for durability reasons, which just isn't a concern for most people anymore. They are more concerned with the seats being leather and their Bluetooth working.

I hope at least some truck based SUVs will stick around, as they are the only ones I have an interest in. You can have a lot of fun with them. Most will take a lot of abuse and keep going.

I have to give Toyota credit for doing a good job of keeping the 4Runner true to its roots. It's still on a frame, it's still got the solid rear axle, and it still has a manual t-case. At the same time, you don't give up any comfort. That's a well designed SUV in my opinion.

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Most of those features also carried over to the first 2 generations of the Grand Cherokee as well. I'm less familiar with the current JGC, but it certainly looks a lot less capable at a glance. However I think it still has solid axles at both ends, so maybe its not a complete poseur.

Grand Cherokees have had IFS since 1999.


I think you're wrong on the date. The WJ version ran from 98 to 2004, and I KNOW it has a solid front axle, just like the ZJ before it.


WJs are from 99-04, not 98. My uncle has a 98 ZJ. I thought WJs had IFS, guess not.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Well, you still have the Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban/Yukon XL and Escalades.

They aren't going anywhere soon...to the dismay of "some" around here.


Personally, I don't much care whether they come or go -- not a foreseeable part of my transport mission. As for others, that's up to them. That said, I would think that with recent fuel price instability, the "frivolous ownership" segment of the market for the larger truck-SUVs will gradually wither.

Are they "dead"? I too strongly doubt that. They have a place. Now whether it makes sense to drive one as a status symbol, well, y'all answer that for yourselves as you see fit. Uh-oh, here it comes, I just couldn't resist goading GMBoy a little

-- with gas prices headed only one way, what's sillier -- driving a Suburban as a status symbol* or driving a Prius as a status symbol???

* If you actually do tow a boat or camper, or move a lot of cargo, of course, that's different.

Good post, ek. I guess you could say that status symbols can vary depending on the price of gas...to some. I think the typical Suburban owner really doesn't care while the Prius driver is more "aware' of gas prices and "feels good" about doing their part - whatever that may be.

The fact is that we can't build enough large SUV's and have been on max overtime (including Saturdays) since last August and it's not forecasted to stop. I wonder how much overtime the small car plants are working? Oh, I know - none. The market dictates what sells, not politics. Now, I know this trend will NOT go on forever, but I'm just enjoying the ride while it lasts!

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
My mom chose the Jeep GC over several Car based vehicles because she said the GC felt more solid.

GC-Body on frame


The GC is unibody.

EDIT: I see I was late to the party on this one.

 

[Trav]

I say drive what you want for whatever reason you want,just don't cut me off in the winter because this Expedition thing doesn't stop on a dime.I will however offer you a ride home as your totalled cracker box is driving away on the hook.