Is oil really THAT important?

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I'm always amazed at the number of people who make claims that "as long as you follow the manufacturers recommendations, the engine will last longer than you want to keep the vehicle". That is most certainly not true. Today, there are a very large number of vehicles and engine types that experience some form of lubricant related failure.

I like to use BMW as an example. For quite some time BMW has offered free service and oil changes. Those oil changes were extended for various reasons. Possibly to reduce owner hassle, maybe for environmental reasons and probably to reduce BMW's overall service expenses. A doctor I use fell prey to the BMW program, and the sludge was legendary. That's why I continue to post pictures of failed BMW engines, properly maintained according to the schedule.

I don't claim to "know better" than the manufacturer. I do claim that there are many negative factors driving a manufacturers oil requirements, many of those factors are contrary to long service life. In particular, there is an entire group of modern engines spread among major manufacturers, that will ABSOLUTELY give better service with a quality synthetic oil of the proper viscosity, and more frequent changes. BMW, VW, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai and Kia all produce engines with oil related failure issues.

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Spot on Cujet. Oil recommendations and OCIs are always sort of a compromise. If your main competition can do 30k OCI, you better do it yourself. Same for cambelt/camchain service interval. I can remember several OEM recommended interval revisions over years.
 
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: kjbock
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: bigjl


I don’t know anybody, that has changed the oil and used decent oil, that has had a lubricant related issue.



Come over here to our shop. I can show you many. There are two in the shop right now getting new pistons and rings.


Did they always follow the MM? Is it the 3.7L engine? Did they only use dino/semi-syn when changing the oil and following the MM?


Almost every single one of them just followed the MM with the OE semi synthetic 5W20. Yes, the MDX 3.7, but we also see the same issue with the TL 3.5 and TSX 2.0. Pretty much everything from the start of the use of a MM.

Ask any Acura dealer tech, and NONE of them follow any factory MM. Well, one guy does, but he just leases a new car every two years.


Thanks for the info. I usually follow the MM, but change as soon as the warning light goes on (15%), though I also always use a fully synthetic oil.
 
Each to thier own, but I don't get the "just follow" thing either. The only thing people can come up with for not having more frequent oil changes, is that "it wastes oil". If that is your only consideration, I can't argue with that. However, the potential downsides on the other side of the coin(longer OCI's) are legion. I come from a background where things like manufacturer recommendations were MINIMUM acceptable standards, and where there were usually much stricter standards in place. These standards were implemented to head off potential failures. The idea of a failure of any kind was unacceptable. Does this need to carry over into my personal transportation? Probably not, but that is how I operate.
 
Originally Posted By: JFAllen
Is oil quality and service intervals important on a Saab B235/205 Engine? fform the late 90's early 2000's

You bet your butt it is. poor design, poor oil spec, too long a drain interval, too small a sump, turbo'd, service oil change at best swaps out 80% of used oil... The list goes on. However you find those that used premium synthetics had significantly less problems.

I'm using Dexos2 (not Dexos1 v2.0) oil in mine, as it's a mid/low saps oil that still meets ACEA A3/B3/B4. The same is true of VW 504/507 oils
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However that is not true of all C2 and C3 class oils.

regards
Jordan

Dexos2 is based upon ACEA C3 specification being a mid- SAPS oil. Still, wear requirements are the same as for A3/B4, if not higher. The oil's capability to neutralise acidic formations from combustion process is lower.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'm always amazed at the number of people who make claims that "as long as you follow the manufacturers recommendations, the engine will last longer than you want to keep the vehicle". That is most certainly not true. Today, there are a very large number of vehicles and engine types that experience some form of lubricant related failure.

I like to use BMW as an example. For quite some time BMW has offered free service and oil changes. Those oil changes were extended for various reasons. Possibly to reduce owner hassle, maybe for environmental reasons and probably to reduce BMW's overall service expenses. A doctor I use fell prey to the BMW program, and the sludge was legendary. That's why I continue to post pictures of failed BMW engines, properly maintained according to the schedule.

I don't claim to "know better" than the manufacturer. I do claim that there are many negative factors driving a manufacturers oil requirements, many of those factors are contrary to long service life. In particular, there is an entire group of modern engines spread among major manufacturers, that will ABSOLUTELY give better service with a quality synthetic oil of the proper viscosity, and more frequent changes. BMW, VW, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai and Kia all produce engines with oil related failure issues.

maxresdefault.jpg


pistonpicture.jpg



Better be careful making claims like this and backing them up with pics.
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FTR I'm with you!!!
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Dexos2 is based upon ACEA C3 specification being a mid- SAPS oil. Still, wear requirements are the same as for A3/B4, if not higher. The oil's capability to neutralise acidic formations from combustion process is lower.

And just to be clear it’s not the oil’s capability to neutralize acid, it is the capacity. It is equally capable of doing so, but the overall capacity is less.
 
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
In the grand scheme of automotive maintenance is oil really that important? As long as you change your oil in a reasonable time does it really matter what oil you use and what interval?

Does it matter if you use the best Group 4 oil with the lowest NOACK and a Fram Ultra versus using any approved oil? Will I see real world benefits like engine running better after 100k miles?

I was reading a few posts here and it seems like our cars are falling apart. Cars are rusting out, oil is leaking out of every gasket on the engine, rubber hoses all cracked, factory original suspension at 200k miles and 10 years, people exploding their timing belts, etc. Are we misplacing our time and effort in focusing on motor oils?


My take is that every component in a car ages and each component is engineered to a lifespan under a variably operating condition.
Everything breaks and loses performance overtime. The cost of keeping the car in running condition is a function of a) regular maintenance and b) replacing those components.

Some parts are easier to get to and cost less manual labor but some aren't. I'm always of the belief that the engine costs a lot to take apart and inspect and rebuild to spec than other areas e.g. brakes, suspension, and body work.

Now, if I could pay more attention to a) in order to minimize b), I would do it all day long. Engine oil and oil filters are almost a commodity. It also costs me 30-45 minutes if I do it myself.

It is a personal preferences at the end of the day, it depends on how one sees the value of changing oil.
 
I counter with, by far more people who follow the manufacturer's recommendations do have engines that outlast the rest of the vehicle. There will always be a small percentage that has issues, it's unavoidable. But as Cujet illustrates, There are definitely more robust oils available where viscosity, specs and approvals are concerned for most family vehicles and sometimes these more robust offerings should have been recommended to begin with.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Dexos2 is based upon ACEA C3 specification being a mid- SAPS oil. Still, wear requirements are the same as for A3/B4, if not higher. The oil's capability to neutralise acidic formations from combustion process is lower.

And just to be clear it’s not the oil’s capability to neutralize acid, it is the capacity. It is equally capable of doing so, but the overall capacity is less.
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After all of these years rarely running any Euro spec oil in anything, I've never had a problem with stuck piston rings.
You're making a straw man argument in this case.
The API/ILSAC oils really are that good, but then we don't need to go insane on drain intervals here since any oil, even the Euro spec ones, is pretty cheap on this side of the pond.
Just for reference, our two newest cars call for 6K drains (Forester) and 8-10K drains (>15% MM Accord) so the drain intervals are quite short by EU standards, but we can also buy motor oil for little more than the VAT on the same product in the EU.
Yes, there is a connection between cost and drain interval recommendations.
It's more of a pocketbook issue than an oil quality one.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
After all of these years rarely running any Euro spec oil in anything, I've never had a problem with stuck piston rings.
You're making a straw man argument in this case.
The API/ILSAC oils really are that good, but then we don't need to go insane on drain intervals here since any oil, even the Euro spec ones, is pretty cheap on this side of the pond.
Just for reference, our two newest cars call for 6K drains (Forester) and 8-10K drains (>15% MM Accord) so the drain intervals are quite short by EU standards, but we can also buy motor oil for little more than the VAT on the same product in the EU.
Yes, there is a connection between cost and drain interval recommendations.
It's more of a pocketbook issue than an oil quality one.


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Sure. You don't get stuck rings by changing out say Redline weekly
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OK, that's a ridiculous short OCI, but the point is valid. Changing a premium synthetic oil at say 8,000 miles will likely net you spotless ring land area. Sure it'll cost a bit more, but what do engines cost ...

What's a new, or even rebuilt M3 engine go for these days?

Even a run of the mill small block Chebie will set you back $2,500 and that is equal to a ton of oil changes. Why on earth would anyone with an expensive car go beyond 12,000 with even the best oil ... It's totally beyond me.

Oil is cheap, even in Europe if compared to the cost of an engine tear-down ...
 
Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
As someone who is sick of replacing pistons and short blocks on MDX, TL and TSX that burn too much oil due to stuck oil control rings and worn/scratched cylinder walls, I would say yes. Oil is more important than most people think.

I wonder if they were all using a 40 grade Euro A3 oil, if you would still be seeing these problems ? It seems less common in Australia, New Zealand and Europe where the thicker Euro grade oils are more commonly used.

Still BrocL on his SAE40 and Red on his SAE30 should have no problems either. Given a warm climate.
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Sure. You don't get stuck rings by changing out say Redline weekly
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OK, that's a ridiculous short OCI, but the point is valid. Changing a premium synthetic oil at say 8,000 miles will likely net you spotless ring land area. Sure it'll cost a bit more, but what do engines cost ...

What's a new, or even rebuilt M3 engine go for these days?

Even a run of the mill small block Chebie will set you back $2,500 and that is equal to a ton of oil changes. Why on earth would anyone with an expensive car go beyond 12,000 with even the best oil ... It's totally beyond me.

Oil is cheap, even in Europe if compared to the cost of an engine tear-down ...


A new engine for my 1er is $22k. That’s a lot of oil changes.
 
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