Is any additive useful in Direct Injection motors?

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Originally Posted By: badtlc
I think you completely missed the point.

The question was can they be useful in direct injection engines. The paper shows they are.


I think you missed the point of what are the potential problem with direct injection engines.

It's like saying is clipping your toenails helpful if you have cancer. Then arguing that the technically correct answer is Yes, because trimmed toenails are always good for foot health and hygiene.

If you don't have cancer, then great, because advice applies universally.
But you could've left the cancer clause out of the problem statement.
 
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Don't have to. Injectors are already a known issue that is treated and prevented with additives.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Don't have to. Injectors are already a known issue that is treated and prevented with additives.

It's still a different problem than with port fuel injectors. Those mist the intake valves in fuel (and the detergents in the fuel). Apparently the issue with GDI is that carbon deposits form from the explosion, but most current detergents work before the fuel is burned.

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

BG seems to have a cleaning kit that's applied directly on the valves. It's a 2 step process that requires using brushes and vacuuming the deposits after they break off.

http://www.ngpracing.com/home/?p=1006

While the benefits of the VW/Audi gasoline direct injection engines are many, there is a single major drawback: carbon buildup. In a traditional fuel injected vehicle the fuel is injected into the intake port of the head on the engine, which in turn helps to clean the intake port and the top of the intake valve. Direct injection bypasses this by injecting fuel directly into the combustion chamber, which results in more power, but lacks the cleaning effect of the fuel spraying into the intake port. This ultimately results in carbon buildup in the intake ports and on the top of the valves. This carbon buildup can cause misfires, a drop in performance and decreased fuel economy.

This two step BG direct injection cleaner kit includes everything that you need to break up and clean up these deposits in just a few steps. The first cleaner is used to soak the carbon deposits and soften it up for scrubbing with the included wire brush and picks. After this, vacuum away the loosened deposits. And finally the second cleaner removes the remaining residue from the intake port. After a final wipe down of the intake port and valve, your engine should be ready for several more miles of enjoyment."

Now Costco seems to believe that the higher concentration of their "Clean Power" additives might make up for the lack of fuel mist directly on the seat of the valves.

Costco's website has a video showing what the issue is:

http://www.costco.com/gasoline-clean-power.html

Other manufacturers are also trying to apply coatings to the valves that are less likely to form carbon deposits.
 
Spoke to a Hyundai mechanic who said 2011 - 2012 model years with DI engines are coming in at 35K miles with intakes looking pretty nasty - but a $300.00 cleaning will recify the situation for you . Are you kidding ? ...Every 35K miles ? I would be willing to bet that in 2 ~ 3 years time ALL manufacturers will re-think their warrantys for DI engines ... No thank you for me - you can have your reduced OCI's and walnut shell blasted intake cleanings every 30K ~ 35K miles on DI engines ...Buyer beware !
**With all the new fracked oil being discovered in North Dakota - CAFE regulations can take a hike ! ... I'll take a PFI engine any time - proven technology .
 
Wouldn't something like Seafoam, sprayed in through the throttle throat and via vacuum line into the intake manifold, then left to soak for a while before startup, affect the carbon buildup on the valves?

I think that with theccomplexity of the DI injectors, it wouldbe wise to run a KNOWN strong injector cleaner (SI-1 seems the strongest in my experience, but I have yet to get permission to use the $1.4mil GCMS at the lab to run a bunch through to see lol).
I know that with my 328Ci, which is using Bosch Gen3 injectors instead of the usual BMW up-sized injectors (the Bosch Gen3 are a huge improvement, with something like 380 percent better atomization, average droplet size 400pct smaller, dispersal evenness improved to within +/-0.02 percent per square mm, 40pct shorter fuel pulses which results in better AFR across the Rev range, and a host of other improvements), for a forced induction application, my tuner was able to squeeze out not only 29rwhp and 18rwtq more than equivalent blower setups using Gen2 injectors, but they're also one of the reasons why I can run a 6krpm motor to over 8.4krpm without a single issue (aside from theoobvious mechanical modifications needed to permit such high engine speed).
The better fuel dispersal and improved DME control over injector timing/pulses also allows for a greater variance in speed/load injector mapping, so muchso that I went from 28.8mpg N/A (268rwhp) to 30.9mpg FI (419rwhp).

Direct injection is nothing more than a way for manufacturers to easily meet CAFE limits, and reduce costs long term, because as my experience has shown me, regular injectors still have plenty of life in them.

Oh, and the ones in the 328 are rated at over 2x the flow rate, which normally results in somewhatrich low load AFR, but it is not the case for these.

I just installed a set of slightly upsized Gen3's in my E46 M3 to go along with the CF CSL Airbox + Tune, Supersprint V1 Stepped Headers, Akrapovic Ti full exhaust (10lb total vs over sixty), VAC superlight UD Pulleys, 190lph fuel pump, BW Crank Bearings, ARP full engine fastener kit, VAC One-Point HG (0.1pt compressioniincrease), and some 296/292 cams. VANOS is running Beisan eeverything, and maintenance is well ahead of schedule.
It was retuned for the new injectors, and in the following time I saw an increase in power on same dyno w same operator and extremely similar conditions, from 336rwhp and 261rwtq to 342rwhp and 267rwtq, with as much as +19rwtq and +15rwhp under the curve.

Even with my data logging showing an average TPS reading 18pct higher (meaning I've been spending a lot more time running it harder, but wouldn't you?), my avg economy on ethanol free 93aki has gone from 24.2mpg to 25.7mpg. Took a trip to see family for Thanksgiving, 400mi each way, and prior Highway economy was around 28.0mpg. Now? 30.3mpg.


For a modification to a performance car, for more performance, and actually to increase fuel, it's sure had a great effect on economy!

I am now convinced that DI has its uses, but they're far from universal and not anywhere near as universal as manufacturers are pushing. In fact, I question the need even for factory turbo (GDI) motors...
 
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