Is any additive useful in Direct Injection motors?

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Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: tc1446
any gas additive would be useful in the long term since it uses direct injection?


fuel surface-tension reduction agent


You cant just drop that bomb and leave....please explain
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Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: tc1446
any gas additive would be useful in the long term since it uses direct injection?


fuel surface-tension reduction agent


You cant just drop that bomb and leave....please explain
36.gif


Jeff


lol@the popocorn eating guy
"Oh he's going to say acetone and all hail's gonna break loose"
Well, that's right! I am mentioning ketones!! Acetone, MEK, oh my!


Why reduce surface tension?
DI suffers higher soot loading and higher fuel adhesion (reflected by dilution) which are both caused by the fractioned period of time allowed for the gasoline to volatilize. Reducing fuel tension using the mentioned agents has has shown to help even port injection systems better volatilize the fuel, DI could definitely benefit from a little ketone boost.

Quote:

but muh fuel system!

Ketones are very solvent and can eat certain rubbers and polymers.
Luckily, such susceptible types of rubbers are not used in any modern fuel system, they would be deteriorated by the gasoline itself (at a much slower rate) if they were.

I've personally tested some modern fuel components ie. samples of rubber & plastic fuel line and o-rings in pure acetone; no effect. Neither has there been any effect on my fuel system components for the 6+ year since I first tried it, at roughly 6oz/10gallon
treat rate.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Out of curiosity what type of oil does Honda state to use?
Jeff


They call for 0-20. I have PP for the next change.


I know Honda knows what they are doing, what service intervals are they requiring for this 20w oil? The thing is, USUALLY DI motors shear oil, not as bad as a Turbo does, but the Fuel delivery USUALLY causes fuel dilution issues that causes the oil to come out of "range". This can be seen on numerous UOA's on different DI motors.

I would go 3k miles on the oil, get a sample sent out. If it comes back "in range" shoot for 5k. Then re test. Comes out ok shoot for 7500 etc. I believe Honda recommends 7500 OCI's if Im not mistaken.

I always side on the cautious side. I would rather change the oil before it NEEDS to be changed. I always like having a "margin of error". These cars just cost too much to wait till the oil is near death to change it.

Just my ten cents

Jeff


JEff, Honda uses a MM on the '13 and from what I've read on a Honda forum 8-10K before the MM says 10% left....or numbers thereabouts. I changed at 5K and the MM was somewhere around 50%. I plan to change again at 10K. On previous cars I've run 10K with M1 or Amsoil and never had any problem. With this car...my first and prob last Honda...I'm beginning to think I might as well run a good qual dino if I'm going to change every 5K. If i go that route, I believe I'd have to use 5-20 as I don't recall seeing any dino in 0-20 weight. However, I have one or two changes of PP 0-20 on hand and will use that up first.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Then again maybe Honda has the system down pat like Cadillac. They dont have the carbon issues.

This statement caught my eye since I have a Cadillac ATS with a 2.0T DI engine. Am I hearing that GM/Cadillac does pretty good when it comes to DI?

There seems to be some differing opinions in this thread. Some say that a fuel additive isn't going to do anything; others say that it will have some benefit.

In the past, I've used a good additive like Gumout Regane or Chevron Techron at every oil change, which has typically been 6000 - 7500 miles. With the ATS, I'm planning to take advantage of the included oil changes up to 4 years / 50K miles and will take it to the dealer as early as they'll accept it. The Service Consultant at the dealer I purchased the vehicle from said he can do an oil change once the OLM reads under 40%. Given my driving style and conditions, I anticipate that typically being around 6K miles.
 
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GM's Dexos spec has to do with cleanliness among other stuff. Valvoline's durablend 5-20 + 5-30 noack @ 11 where their full "synthetic" is 10 for same viscosity oils. their durablend goes for about $17 + or - for 5 qts at wally's. vw-audi which has had more DI issues are bringing both DI + port injection into production. sobaru's 2.0 is another as they never used just DI prolly taking a wait and see stance, others jumping into it are having issues some more some less. sometime new tech takes years of REAL usage to see how it really WORKS!!
 
first we are the testers as manufacturers roll out DI to help meet MPG + pollution requirements. on cars with both the port injectors at lo rpm clean the valves while it actually works better it was said, at higher rpm + loads the DI helps cool the mix for denotation free running at higher cylinder pressures. this IS an issue that will not just go away and the more miles you drive, especially shorter trips the worse it WILL get!!
 
Originally Posted By: barlowc
There seems to be some differing opinions in this thread. Some say that a fuel additive isn't going to do anything; others say that it will have some benefit.

So what is the consensus on using something like Regane or Techron in a DI engine?
 
probably won't help.

If your speaking about specific DI engines whose design are vulnerable to carbon buildup on the valves, which happens no matter what fuel you used, adding fuel additive isn't going to solve that. You should've already been using top-tier fuel anyway.

If you're talking about resolving an issue of injector buildup that occurred because you used cheap quality fuel, then the additive can help with that.
 
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Originally Posted By: badtlc
VW isn't adding port injection to clean intake valves.


Note that Toyota has specifically said the extra injector it uses in the intake is for part throttle cylinder filling issues that DI motors have, NOT for valve cleaning.

Other mfgrs are simply trying to figure it out (DI). Some have it correct now.

We are the beta testers...
 
I was going through the EPA list of registered fuel additives, and got curious about the first name (Afton Chemical) that I saw with a long list of products. I noticed this on their website:

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
Key Performance Benefits

HiTEC® 6470 is a gasoline performance additive based on Afton’s latest generation, patented, Mannich detergent technology. HiTEC® 6470 is formulated to meet the challenges of modern Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) technology, whilst continuing to deliver excellent performance in the traditional Port Fuel Injection (PFI) engine platform.

I wouldn't know how anyone would know this is in their fuel unless the gas station displays something about "direction injection cleaning". However, this particular additive isn't registered for Top Tier certification while another additive they have is.
 
Aston is a chemical supplier who is pretty well known in Lubricant manufacturer circles. I know that they market this product not only to fuel companies to mixed at the terminal, but also to aftermarket manufacturers who bottle it and sell it under their own brand.

Lubrizol and many others also follow this same practice. So sometimes you may have a preference between 2 brands, but in reality the chemistry might be coming from the same source.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Aston is a chemical supplier who is pretty well known in Lubricant manufacturer circles. I know that they market this product not only to fuel companies to mixed at the terminal, but also to aftermarket manufacturers who bottle it and sell it under their own brand.

Lubrizol and many others also follow this same practice. So sometimes you may have a preference between 2 brands, but in reality the chemistry might be coming from the same source.

I've looked up the manufacturers of the actual detergent, and the best I can ascertain is that the two major manufacturers (outside of mainland China) of polyether amines are BASF and Huntsman. I thought that maybe Huntsman would have the technical expertise to actually make a complete additive package, but the EPA list only shows they have one product registered with the EPA as a fuel additive, and I thought it might have been fuel grade ethanol.

However, Chevron seems to have pioneered using it as a fuel system cleaner. Or at least that's what I've heard.

Or were you referring to the actual package? I thought that Infineum was a XOM and Shell joint venture, but I see only a few refinery additives from them and I was guessing that Exxon, Mobil, or Shell could be using the identical package and just giving it another name. And I always got a kick out of hearing "Nitrogen Enriched" because it was so vague. What does that mean? Perhaps enriched with organic fertilizer? I'm guessing it's referring to PEA though, but most people wouldn't get that.
 
You are right about PEA manufacturing, Afton, Lubrizol and the like take the PEA and add solvents and lubricity agents to their finished products (which are what would appear in the EPA list).

As far as what goes into your pump gas, it would be hard to tell. Chevron did lead out using PEA under the techron brand, but there is so much fuel trading between companies that it almost becomes moot. Also fuel is transported in pipelines without any additives so it can use the same lines as other similar products. The additives (if any) are typically added at terminals by the marketer (Shell, Mobil etc.) not everyone makes their own fuel additive package because frankly it's not worth the time or energy if you can buy it cheap from Lubrizol, Afton or Oronite.

I also think that nitrogen enriched thing was pretty funny. Up here they've actually changed it to say VPower, probably because the nitrogen enriched thing was a little misleading IMO.
 
In case it hasn't been mentioned, an Amsoil paper was posted showing the benefits of additives for DI motors.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
You are right about PEA manufacturing, Afton, Lubrizol and the like take the PEA and add solvents and lubricity agents to their finished products (which are what would appear in the EPA list).

As far as what goes into your pump gas, it would be hard to tell. Chevron did lead out using PEA under the techron brand, but there is so much fuel trading between companies that it almost becomes moot. Also fuel is transported in pipelines without any additives so it can use the same lines as other similar products. The additives (if any) are typically added at terminals by the marketer (Shell, Mobil etc.) not everyone makes their own fuel additive package because frankly it's not worth the time or energy if you can buy it cheap from Lubrizol, Afton or Oronite.

I also think that nitrogen enriched thing was pretty funny. Up here they've actually changed it to say VPower, probably because the nitrogen enriched thing was a little misleading IMO.

I remember the VPower name. Not sure why it was dropped in favor of some odd sounding stuff. Years ago, Mobil used to just market "Mobil Detergent Gasoline", but that might have been at a time when quite a bit of gasoline might not have contained detergents.

I live fairly close to a major refinery - several actually. A neighbor works for the county in hazardous materials and says that he gets a bunch of paperwork whenever there's a refinery accident. He might also be the guy reporters talk to. However, I've been near one of the terminals near the Chevron Richmond refinery where I've seen everything from tankers marked with fuel transport companies to tankers clearly marked with the names of Chevron's competitors. I understand that the major players have their own additive tanks and there might also be several "generic" tanks. As far as I know, the way Costco is rolling out its additive package with on-site underground mixing is unique.

I've also lived temporarily in other areas far far away from any refinery. I always wondered how fuel could be so cheap with all the transportation costs, but then I was told that it's typically transported by pipeline to various terminals, then trucked to the gas stations.

I posted this in another thread, where a major fuel marketer says they can't control the additive content in their fuel because they don't make it. Now I was under the impression that at least one convenience store brand is Top Tier licensed. I'd think they would either have their own additive tanks at the terminals or they've made an arrangement with one of the big names.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/may/22/pilot-cant-control-detergent-levels/
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
In case it hasn't been mentioned, an Amsoil paper was posted showing the benefits of additives for DI motors.


If this is the one you're talking about:
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2543.pdf

It only is saying it cleans up DI injectors which are even finer and more precise than port fuel injectors.
It doesn't say anything about the valves in a DI engine, which is the true problem area for certain DI engine designs.
 
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I think you completely missed the point.

The question was can they be useful in direct injection engines. The paper shows they are.
 
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Anyone tear down a DI engine with 100K miles or more using a top tier gas, or one of these additives making the DI cleaning claims, and actually see with their own eyes if it works? I don't mean seeing pictures from a report or some creative advertising, an actual tear down?
 
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