Insight on restoring classic cars.

[Huie83]

MY oldest son who is 11 has shown interest and has been talking about wanting to get a old car to work on with me. He is a step kid and I think this could be a good opportunity for us to have some bonding time away from video games and modern kid life. Plus I was super into cars when I was young too and always wished my dad had a project car for us to work on.

I'm looking for some insight from you BITOGers that have restored a classic/muscle car before. My budget to buy the car is $2500, we'll slowly work on it over the years. I am mechanically inclined and can do basic body work. I'll plan on doing everything but any machining myself. This will be a fun opportunity for me to learn welding and painting as we go.

1) In your opinion what would be a good first classic to restore? We like 50's- early 70's cars.
2) I found a 1967 Mercury Comet Capri with no engine or trans ( $1000 asking price). The interior is all there and the body is pretty rust free. I found running Ford 390 engines for under $500 locally and C6 transmissions for $2-400 also. Seems like this may be a good candidate as parts are cheap.
3) I also found a 1970 Buick Skylark ( asking $1750).From what I read, basically the same as a Chevelle. This one is all original ( 350 engine and hydramatic trans) and complete. Owner says he thinks the engine has a lower end knock and is sold as not running, has a little rust in the rest quarters but was a CA car most of its life. Interior is complete but needs to be recovered.

What are your opinions on good classic's to start within my budget and your experiences you could pass along?

 

[supton]

Is this going to be a toy car, or something he thinks he's going to drive to high school the day he turns 16 and gets a license? Obviously you can't predict how mature (or not) he will be when that comes, but I wonder if it shouldn't be "your" car that he gets to work on: and he gets something more of a beater to work on. With the expectation that he can earn his way into driving it (occasionally) when he's older.

 

[krismoriah72]

My dad started me out when i was about 12 y/o. Not sure if this is a good formula for you guys but will pass along.. The goal was for me to have money to buy a car when i was 16..so we had 4 years to make that happen.

He started out with a vehicle that ran pretty good but needed little things..brakes, buffing, some interior pieces, tires and other small oddballs. I think it took a couple of months going to junkyards together and shopping for cheapest prices and tedious work to make it a better car.. we flipped it and made around $750 profit which we then bought another and kept it going..

So the faster i got cars done the faster we could get another one and keep the train moving..

If he would have started with a total restoration i dont think i would have kept the interest i did.

My first muscle car was bought when i was 15 and i had 3 years of wrenching under my belt so it was alot more rewarding doing most of the stuff myself with my dads help.

1965 Mustang. parts were cheap and plenty.. it wasnt show quality but i turned heads more than alot of other cars.

Swap meets, car shows and junkyard picking was some of the better bonding times i had with my dad.

 

[Huie83]

Originally Posted By: supton
Is this going to be a toy car, or something he thinks he's going to drive to high school the day he turns 16 and gets a license? Obviously you can't predict how mature (or not) he will be when that comes, but I wonder if it shouldn't be "your" car that he gets to work on: and he gets something more of a beater to work on. With the expectation that he can earn his way into driving it (occasionally) when he's older.


Great question. This will be a family car to wrench on and enjoy, not his to drive or have when he turns 16. I have 10 and 3 year old boys also that I'm sure would love to tinker and come to car shows/swap meets with us too. Mainly I want to get him involved in something outside of Youtube and video games. He's not into sports or much of anything really, cars are the only thing I have seen him show a interest in.

When it comes time for him to drive I absolutely will help him find a beater to work on and drive. I'm hoping that I can teach him the basics of working on a car in the next 4-5 years so he is ahead of the game when it comes time for his car.

 

[Huie83]

Originally Posted By: krismoriah72


1965 Mustang. parts were cheap and plenty.. it wasnt show quality but i turned heads more than alot of other cars.

Swap meets, car shows and junkyard picking was some of the better bonding times i had with my dad.



Something like this is what I am envisioning, just something to putz around with, teach with and drive as we rebuild it.

 

[Donald]

Well I am sure it could be a fun opportunity for both. Plus a learning opportunity. I rebuilt the engine in my 1965 Mustang with help from my Dad.

The down side is older cars lack modern safety items like air bags and have dangerous gas tanks like the Ford Pinto (drop in gas tank).

 

[The_Jeff]

Seems like everyone has this dream. Before the kid loses interest you need to make progress though and that means having local parts and even parts cars, junkyards, etc.

I'd twist it and get a late 80s or early 90s beater for a few *hundred* bucks and make it run right, maybe even flip it and keep the cash for a cooler project.

Something like a 3rd gen camaro or fox-body mustang, or even a cavalier. He's 11 and his idea of cool might not be fully developed. If he is going to drive this in 5 years you'd be happy to have power disc brakes and three-point seat belts, too.

Or get an early OBD-II car and ELM327 dongle so he can watch computer data and do some diagnostic.

There's the risk, if you get a 60's car, of not having another one in sight, and the adult (you) getting "heavy handed" about "ruining" something "irreplaceable". Kids detect this and usually resent it as the "fun" evaporates. A 90's car, there are plenty more of, and learning, and screwing up, is part of the process.

 

[supton]

I like the idea of fixing and flipping. Few reasons why: it builds the idea of "this is an inanimate object, no need to get overly attached. It can be replaced." It may help with skills (buying, selling, shopping). Help with learning how to do research (hit up the web, learn more about any given model). Forces them to see how the same thing can be done multiple ways (every manufacturer does things differently).

 

[bioburner]

At 11 I would see about getting a car that he can drive too. Will help keep the interest IMO. Take a look at the better NASCAR drivers and the age they started. Plenty of lakes to drive on in the winter. See if he has a interest in motorcycles too. The scale and time to get it running is pretty fast and if the interest wanes the $$$ is little.

 

[spackard]

Buick is hard car to find parts for.

I'd probably get a Plymouth Valiant with a slant 6.

 

[Huie83]

I see your guy's point about buying and flipping to teach but that's not really what I'm looking to do at the moment. Selling my last car on Craigslist wasn't very fun and I don't want to do it over and over. LOL. Just looking for something to tinker with him on a few hours a week.

I'd like to stick with a classic, he and I have already talked about it and it's what he shows most interest in.

I suppose we could go with a newer Camaro or Foxbody Mustang but I don't think that's in our current budget.

 

[69GTX]

Having been entrenched in the classic muscle car hobby from 1992-2009 I can say you have your work cut out for you, especially with a starting point of $2500 for a "car." My advice would be to try and find a more desirable model to try and get some of your money back in the end. No, a Skylark is not a Chevelle. The demand for the Chevelle is huge. Find the most rust free body you can. That will cost you a lot less time and money in the end. If you can swing a car that comes with the original drive train that's +10% to +20% in your pocket after restoration. Paying 10% more on a $2500 car at purchase will be $1500 at time of sale....assuming it's a car with enough demand that the #'s really matter. My own preference would be to cars like Mopar roadrunners, super bees, Coronet R/T or a later Cuda/Challenger, Buick GS400, Olds 442 or at least Cutlass Supreme with the big engine, Pontiac GTO or Trans AMs of any years, Ford V8 Mustangs of any years, Mercury Cougars with the 351, Ford Torino's, etc.

One option is taking over someone else's project...usually meaning most of the money they invested is already down the toilet (and in your pocket). I just don't see purchasing a $2500 car today and coming out with a "restored" car worth more than $10K-$15K when you're done....and having spent $25K-$30K to get there. Odds would HIGHLY favor that despite your best intentions, the project will never get close to completion and you will sell it. Plan for that eventuality as worst case.

If it were me, I'd find a primo unrestored car that needs work. In other words, taking a solid #3 or strong #4 driver having original drive train yet some warts. Solid body. It may cost $8K to $12K for such a car. But you'll find years of things to do with it to make it much more show worthy. And you can drive it the entire time you're working towards that goal. The Buick GS400 is possibly one car you can find cheap enough. Even the earlier Wildcats with 330 gross hp. Ensure your son is onboard with liking the car. There's something to be said to looking at performance cars from the 1980's and 1990's that aren't worth much today, but give a decent return of your dollar invested. You can find $3,000 1993-2002 Firebird and Camaro V8's with nice paint but needing interior cosmetics and drive train/suspension work. The 1980's to early 1990's Mustang V8 Fox bodies don't cost much either and could be nice projects with bang for the buck. I know how tuff and frustrating this hobby can be. I would seriously lean towards something that starts off in nicer condition, even if it means moving up from the 1960's to the 1980's. A later 1970's Plymouth Duster with a 340 replacing a 318 is a good project. Though even those bodies have come up quite a bit in price.

Beat the bushes and just find a deal you can't refuse while considering everything from 1964 to 1996. You will find that searching for such a vehicle will be as much fun as working on it. The chase is half the battle and fun. You will learn a ton while doing it...and don't settle early. The more you look, the more you will learn. I'd plan on a 6-12 month search and be fussy as heck. Good luck.

 

[69GTX]

I recall back in 2006 my buddy in California was selling his nice original paint, 1970 black Mercury Cougar with red interior with the 351C engine. It had 52K miles and he was the 2nd owner. Tons of documentation and a Calif car all its life. Neat car. Unfortunately it had been keyed on one side. Still, a very worthy driver car. He was only asking $7500 for the car and it took a while to sell. I'd have bought it but shipping cross country was $2,000 for starters. Had I been local, that would have been mine. And it would have been a good high end project to re-detail out for full show duty. Even today, I don't think something like that would cost more than $10K-$12K.

I realize Minnesota is not a hot bed for rust free classic cars. Lots of them will have had body panels replaced, and then re-rusted again. It only makes your job harder. Immerse yourself in to all the options of make, model, engine size, era, condition, etc. Just figuring out where to go and know what's in front of you will be difficult. Year One and other reproduction outlets make most body parts and accessories for the higher demand models. Won't say they are cheap, but they are available. I can't stress enough about trying to avoid a rusty body as it can bury you in cost and time. And in the end, you'll still have an ex-rusty car where half the body panels needed replacing. That doesn't sell well in the collector car market.

 

[Huie83]

69GTX, Thank you, truly appreciate the insight.

I think you bring up a lot of great points, I will definitely keep them in mind during my/our search. I won't buy a heap just because I can get it to fit in my budget. I'd rather wait and save up to buy something that is actually worth putting the time and money into. I think I could open our scope to newer Camaro's, Firebirds, Foxbodies etc and still gain the same experience with the kids. I'll have to search with them and see what else he/they are into.

Rust is a major issue up here. One thing I have started to look for is project cars that were brought in from out of state and then either sat in a barn/garage and the restoration never started.

 

[BrocLuno]

As a step child who was learning about my new father, getting a car to tinker on was one of Mom's strategies. My sister was born when I was 9 and the car kept me busy while she was taking care of new baby. Going from only child to sibling could be hard, but was not in this case. That was 1958 or so ...

So I got an old Dodge sedan for my 10th birthday. It went up on blocks out in the side yard (fenced) and all the neighborhood kids would come by to play cops and robbers, Elliot Ness, Sky King, what have you. We were in and out of that car all day long. Since it was on block, the front wheels turned, so we could steer, etc.

To learn wrenching, I ran the roto-tiller, kept the mower going, etc. Eventually, we put the battery back in the Dodge and we started it. Ran around the block. But to get any speed, I'd sneak off to a buddies house where he had a real Go-Kart

Point being, there are a lot of ways to approach this. The biggest deal is to not get in over your head. And, to not make it Dad's project !!!! Do not look at it as investment, or a head turner. Let him do the magazine and book work to figure out what would be cool within and agreed purchase budget and a second budget for fix-up. It'll turn out to be about 50/50 ...

Let him set the pace and show you ideas. They may look hideous to you, but go along and let him find out that they don't look good, or work out. You can always repaint over a kid styling job when he figures it out.

Don't go crazy on things neophytes know nothing about. Don't get him into gears and posi until he understands the feel of TQ and RPM and how power builds. Much better to start by installing a stick in a car with 2.70's and letting him struggle to get it to go, than to have a jack rabbit first time out ...

See if you can steer him in the directions of a conventional/traditional layout. Front motor, mid-tranny, live rear end. It's all logical and he can segregate the functions and the repairs/upgrades into groups. It makes it easier to look for swap parts and see systems as they lay out.

BTW - I went from that old 4-door Dodge, to a flathead V-8 Ford, to a 56 Plymouth, to a OHV V-8 Ford sedan to a series of fairly hot Ranch Wagons including a G-2 Blower 292 that would make some modern toys look slow. I also got a job after HS working in an Auto Repair shop and doing evening work in a body shop sanding on occasion.

The downside is I totaled 7 cars before I was 21 street racing. No body got hurt other than minor bruises. And I learned to salvage and rebuild so I could get back off my sneakers and behind the wheel. I had an AG license when I was 14 and I never wrecked a truck or a tractor, just my own cars. Boys and testosterone ...

It was the lesser of two evils for my folks. They forbade me having a motorcycle until I was 21. So they worked me through the cars as best they could. I did buy a bike and one for Mom too (Honda 90's) on my 21st B'Day week

But I rode buddies bikes since I was 12. Still riding and have not had an accident in a car or on a bike in something like 35 years. You learn by your mistakes. your boy needs to make some. Do not be overly enthusiastic about "guiding" the project. Even if it's a total fiasco, it's pocket change to you. Make him pony up 50% for anything other than acquisition. He's gotta have skin in the game ...

As far as rust, after he has done to book and magazine stuff and figured out what is doable (in his mind), both of you hop a plane out here (LA, Phoenix, Vegas, etc.) and buy the bones and drive it home. Take you carry bag of emergency tools. You'll know what you have by the time you get there and you'll bond along the way

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: Huie83
I suppose we could go with a newer Camaro or Foxbody Mustang but I don't think that's in our current budget.


Those might be some of the cheaper deals out there, at least compared to 1960's metal. You can buy a 150K mile 1998-2002 LS1 Firebird/Camaro for $2500-$5000 and it won't be wrecked....just mostly used up. I would think the Fox bodies would be inexpensive too. If you go back to the Chevy LT1's of 1993-1997 they are even cheaper, though less desirable.

Fwiw, I sold my 1998 Camaro Z28 automatic with 115K miles in 2009 for $3,000 to a dealer....he listed it for $3800. And that car was in nice shape, looking more like 55K miles with no paint issues. Only thing wrong was suspension was a tad sloppy though 100% original, and the AC wasn't working. There was a tiny ding by the gas filler gap and a dent in the lower right rear rocker panel. For $3,000 I was stupid to let it go as it had zero issues with the drive train....ran as good as it did when I bought it with 22K miles in 2002. $2K in upgrades and that car would have been fresh to rock and roll again. Though maybe not the best choice for a young driver.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: Huie83


3) I also found a 1970 Buick Skylark ( asking $1750).From what I read, basically the same as a Chevelle. This one is all original ( 350 engine and hydramatic trans) and complete. Owner says he thinks the engine has a lower end knock and is sold as not running, has a little rust in the rest quarters but was a CA car most of its life. Interior is complete but needs to be recovered.


Not a bad deal if it's truly all original and mostly rust free. A lot of owners were told by the last owners that the car has original engine in it. They often never to check it out themselves. Figure 50% or more of them are not what the owner thinks or says. Was this one a Buick GS? If it's a nice color combo could be a worthy project. If it's earth tone colors like pukey browns/yellows/greens, those command approx 5-10% less when done. The more options and better color combo's when starting out...the better the final result. Console shifted, sure grip or posi rear, higher rear gear ratio (3.20 and up), and 350 with 4v carb are all nice options. 2 doors only though unless you find a gem. The Olds 442 - 4 door wagons are pretty neat.

Skylark 1970

 

[Ducked]

I don't have any kids, (though I used to be one), so what do I know?, but I'd say at age 11 there's a risk that interest won't be sustained. In such a case, you either have to be comfortable with it becoming "your" personal project, or you have to be prepared to sell it or junk it.

It sounds like you have some interest in classics of your own, so maybe the best strategy is to get one for yourself, and get a banger (beater in American) for junior later, if he seems motivated.

With no home automotive background at all (probably not very unusual in the UK) and nowhere to work or store stuff at home (landless peasant apartment dwellers), I had to self-teach this stuff later. I THINK if home circumstances had been different I'd have been very receptive to learning it earlier, but with teenagers, who knows?

 

[CrAlt]

Ive done a few resto's before and some advise I could offer is get the most complete car you can afford. Ive taken over failed projects before and its 2x the work trying to put together a car you didn't take apart. Nothings organized and you dont know what parts your missing.

Also get a car you are both actually interested in. The biggest challenge (besides MONEY) is motivation. If the car isn't what your into then it will be hard to get rolling on it every day.

My teenage project was a Plymouth Scamp I put a 440 in to. Car was a total disaster but it was fun and I learned tons doing it.

 

[Huie83]

The 70 Skylark is not a GS, just standard 2 door Skylark. It is actually a [censored] brown color with black interior. That's OK by me though as we'd paint it. I'll have to go check this one out to see if it is the real deal or not. The seller says he picked it up from the original family who parked it when the engine developed a lower end knock. Who knows how much of that is true though.

I'm going to expand my search into the neighboring states to see what else I can find. I think pickings are slim right now because it's winter and no one wants to drag a cra out of a barn at -20 degrees

I may just wait until spring to see what pops up.

I'll keep you posted If I go check this one out as well as with what else I come across.