Insane Electric Rate Increase $508.68/1522 kWh

[KrisZ]

Lol. I think keeping my house at 50-55F through out the past couple of months would be considered pretty green, don’t you?

My parents visited this last weekend and I was in shorts and a t-shirt with the thermostat at 68-72F. They just moved from FL, so them being cold is to be expected

Even if your in a cave and want to light a fire to warm yourself up, that is still bad for the environment, so no you are not frugal enough to save the planet

Seriously though, unfortunately since your house is heated by electric boards, there is nothing you can do to lower the usage much more. You need to switch your heating source to either nat gas or a heat pump, but a heat pump would still need supplemental heating, which is normally electric.

They do have ductless mini split heat pumps, so that may be an option of your house doesn’t have forced air already.

 

[FishFry]

You need to switch your heating source to either nat gas or a heat pump, but a heat pump would still need supplemental heating, which is normally electric.

Well here in Germany gas and oil heating - 95% of all buildings - is now illegal (because of saving the planet and all) - you have to rip it out and install an electric heat pump.
At the same time my electric bill went form 120 to 460 Euros a month.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well here in Germany gas and oil heating is now illegal - you have to rip it out and install an electric heat pump.
At the same time my electric bill went form 120 to 460 Euros a month.

Which is insane given that you are powering it with coal and gas. Burning gas directly is actually less emissions intense than the German grid.

At least here in Ontario (and in France) a heat pump makes sense.

 

[KrisZ]

Well here in Germany gas and oil heating - 95% of all buildings - is now illegal (because of saving the planet and all) - you have to rip it out and install an electric heat pump.
At the same time my electric bill went form 120 to 460 Euros a month.

What are the penalties for not complying?

If majority of people say “no” and should definitely say NO, then what?

What is going on with EU is insanity, too bad people are complying.

 

[Bjornviken]

What are the penalties for not complying?

If majority of people say “no” and should definitely say NO, then what?

What is going on with EU is insanity, too bad people are complying.

EU is moving towards communism 2.0. 2027 is going to be disaster for EU citizens

 

[gathermewool]

Even if your in a cave and want to light a fire to warm yourself up, that is still bad for the environment, so no you are not frugal enough to save the planet

Seriously though, unfortunately since your house is heated by electric boards, there is nothing you can do to lower the usage much more. You need to switch your heating source to either nat gas or a heat pump, but a heat pump would still need supplemental heating, which is normally electric.

They do have ductless mini split heat pumps, so that may be an option of your house doesn’t have forced air already.

I know heat pumps have gotten better, but resistive heat is dominant during cold weather. I’m not sure how much we would save if we only turn the heat up a bit when it’s really cold. Most if the time the indoor temps stay well into the 50s due to south-facing windows and skylights. That might mean that we can turn the heat up a bit when it’s
I mean, $0 with 55F indoor temps or X dollars if we can keep it at, say, 60F. If this is the case we’d only really save on days when it was mild and we had people over, when we keep it at around 68F.

I‘m not sure if it was here or not that someone mentioned newer systems that are able to operate at below 40F more efficiently; I’ll have to look into that.

Now, there will be savings in the summer to consider, but there’s something to be said about being able to simply replace a window unit periodically when it breaks down or more efficient models make the ROI worth an upgrade.

 

[OVERKILL]

I know heat pumps have gotten better, but resistive heat is dominant during cold weather. I’m not sure how much we would save if we only turn the heat up a bit when it’s really cold. Most if the time the indoor temps stay well into the 50s due to south-facing windows and skylights. That might mean that we can turn the heat up a bit when it’s
I mean, $0 with 55F indoor temps or X dollars if we can keep it at, say, 60F. If this is the case we’d only really save on days when it was mild and we had people over, when we keep it at around 68F.

I‘m not sure if it was here or not that someone mentioned newer systems that are able to operate at below 40F more efficiently; I’ll have to look into that.

Now, there will be savings in the summer to consider, but there’s something to be said about being able to simply replace a window unit periodically when it breaks down or more efficient models make the ROI worth an upgrade.

See my recent hybrid heat pump thread (gas + heat pump).

 

[brianl703]

I‘m not sure if it was here or not that someone mentioned newer systems that are able to operate at below 40F more efficiently; I’ll have to look into that.

My circa 2017 Trane builder-grade single stage heatpump can easily keep my house at 68F when it's 17F outside using no aux heat. Think it's an XR15 or an XB15.

A couple of months ago it got to 6F outside. At 6F outside, it couldn't get my house any warmer than 64F (but I have the aux heat disabled except for defrost). 6F outdoor temps are very rare here, and that was overnight when I normally have it set back to 60F anyway. I don't usually set it back overnight if the next day is going to be a cold one where it won't get above freezing; recovery just takes way too long in that case.

 

[gathermewool]

My circa 2017 Trane builder-grade single stage heatpump can easily keep my house at 68F when it's 17F outside using no aux heat. Think it's an XR15 or an XB15.

A couple of months ago it got to 6F outside. At 6F outside, it couldn't get my house any warmer than 64F (but I have the aux heat disabled except for defrost). 6F outdoor temps are very rare here, and that was overnight when I normally have it set back to 60F anyway. I don't usually set it back overnight if the next day is going to be a cold one where it won't get above freezing; recovery just takes way too long in that case.

It sounds like my info is way outdated or I’ve just been wrong about what I thought was possible.

Based on what you’re saying, I’m assuming the recovery is much greater at very low temps than, say, 50F or so?
You’re also saying that the energy used (kWh) is less than if the resistive heat was assisting, so that the only negative at very low temps is the recovery time?

Thanks for the info

 

[brianl703]

Based on what you’re saying, I’m assuming the recovery is much greater at very low temps than, say, 50F or so?

Yes, it is. At 50F outdoor my unit puts out very warm air. At 20F it's not quite as warm. The BTU output drops as the outdoor temp does. At 50F outdoor it puts out every bit of it's 48,000BTU and probably more.

You’re also saying that the energy used (kWh) is less than if the resistive heat was assisting, so that the only negative at very low temps is the recovery time?

That's pretty much the only negative, but at very low temps it may not be able to keep up which is why they put the aux heat coils in. I added a switch to control the aux heat coils and I keep it turned off unless I decide that I need them on. That hasn't happened in 5 years.

Because the BTU output drops when it gets colder, a heatpump works best in a well sealed, well insulated house. Those houses where the heatpump cannot keep up below 40F must either have a bad or undersized heatpump, or are very drafty and poorly insulated, or both.

Gas furnaces tend to be WAY oversized so they'll easily keep a house warm even with a window open at 20F.

 

[KrisZ]

Yes, it is. At 50F outdoor my unit puts out very warm air. At 20F it's not quite as warm. The BTU output drops as the outdoor temp does. At 50F outdoor it puts out every bit of it's 48,000BTU and probably more.



That's pretty much the only negative, but at very low temps it may not be able to keep up which is why they put the aux heat coils in. I added a switch to control the aux heat coils and I keep it turned off unless I decide that I need them on. That hasn't happened in 5 years.

Because the BTU output drops when it gets colder, a heatpump works best in a well sealed, well insulated house. Those houses where the heatpump cannot keep up below 40F must either have a bad or undersized heatpump, or are very drafty and poorly insulated, or both.

Gas furnaces tend to be WAY oversized so they'll easily keep a house warm even with a window open at 20F.

Yes, the house has to be pretty well insulated, for the heatpump to be effective to the lowest possible temps.
A heat pump is really an AC system reversed. The outside unit, that normally is a condenser and rejects heat, becomes the evaporator and it needs to absorb heat. The lower the temperature outside the lower the heat absorption and the air coming out will be cooler and cooler.

A natural gas furnace will have the same heat output regardless of the temperature outside, it will just cycle less or more often, so a drafty house just makes it cycle more.

 

[Aredeeem]

Yes. That’s a bit much. I DO NOT mean to pile it on but as point of reference zip code 08527 where I live the budget plan (12 annual payments) for electric is $92. Natural gas is $122. Why the disparity..I don’t know.

 

[gathermewool]

Yes, the house has to be pretty well insulated, for the heatpump to be effective to the lowest possible temps.
A heat pump is really an AC system reversed. The outside unit, that normally is a condenser and rejects heat, becomes the evaporator and it needs to absorb heat. The lower the temperature outside the lower the heat absorption and the air coming out will be cooler and cooler.

A natural gas furnace will have the same heat output regardless of the temperature outside, it will just cycle less or more often, so a drafty house just makes it cycle more.

I get all of that. There are limits on the system based on how much heat you can actually move from a very lower-temp outside environment into the home, as has been discussed. I’m remembering some graphs from way back when that showed savings even at low temps, but a majority heat input from the resistive assist. The small amount of heat pump add made it still more efficient than the purely resistive that I currently use, for obvious reasons.

The issue still remains two-fold:

1. The cost of the system and maintenance. My baseboard heat is pretty much bulletproof. The window AC units can be replaced whenever for very little money.

2. We would likely use the money saved on maintaining a slightly more comfortable temperature in the occupied spaces. My wife would be happier, I’m sure, but we’ve all acclimated to lower temps in the winter and higher temps in the summer. I feel like we’ll just acclimate to a temp of a few degrees difference and not realize any actual money saved.

I’m worried that my ROI will be excessively long. I still need to do some research to figure this out.

 

[brianl703]

Yes, the house has to be pretty well insulated, for the heatpump to be effective to the lowest possible temps.

That is why I sealed up every gap and crack I saw in my house before the drywall went up..and after the drywall went up, I sealed the top plates in the attic and around all light fixture boxes.

 

[FishFry]

Which is insane given that you are powering it with coal and gas. Burning gas directly is actually less emissions intense than the German grid.

Actually it's way beyond insanity.
A lot of folks just cant afford that - they will loose their houses and apartments.

To put this in perspective - buying a house or a apartment in Germany is really expensive and difficult.
Usually you need to have a ton of money before you even get a credit - and than you pay your mortgage for pretty much for the rest of your live, or at least till you retire. That's why even in Romania more people own houses and apartments, then here in Germany.

And on top of it - now they shut down the last three nuclear power plants we have left, which will rise electricity bills again - and we have the highest prices worldwide already.

That so called "new green deal" made energy so expensiv over here, that even solar panel and windmill companies can't afford it anymore - 4 months ago, the last "green deal" windmill company left the country and went to India, because of the high energy prices..

 

[Ws6]

That's brutal! I am pretty sure it's coming for all of the US, so I went solar back in 2019 to stave off this level of increase. I heartily suggest it if it can physically work for you.

 

[FishFry]

I heartily suggest it if it can physically work for you.

Nah - I live in an Appartement, with no chance to put solar panels anywhere.

 

[KrisZ]

That's brutal! I am pretty sure it's coming for all of the US, so I went solar back in 2019 to stave off this level of increase. I heartily suggest it if it can physically work for you.

Well, that’s how it works though, you and millions of others went in with solar to safeguard against energy costs, but unknowingly or maybe knowingly you are directly contributing to the raising energy costs.

Especially if you were an early adopter. Those juicy and short ROI terms came straight from the rate payers.
In short, the more people go for solar and wind the more the prices will increase, but it will get even more people to “invest” in solar in hopes of a smaller electric bill. It’s quite genius actually.

 

[pantygnome]

Living in CT we have some of the highest electric rates in the country, but solar never made sense for me.

~$20K out-pay for the system, my average electric bill is about 275/month. Looking at about a 7 year payback. AFAIK the panels are warrantied for 10, so 3 years of "profit" then if something goes wrong I get to fix it.

This was before lease-to-"own" solar was a thing, but for some reason any way I look at those it feels like a scam. NO ONE is in business out of the kindness of their heart to the environment. For me to have "no out of pocket cost!" means Im losing the $$$ somewhere.

At this point, Im lucky that Im about 5-6 years away from getting out of this (horrible) state, so it *really* makes no sense to go in on solar anymore. Will be interesting to see if the houses we look at already have solar, and how much of the system has been paid off...I imagine it might make finding the right house even harder because Im not willing to pay someone else's solar system balance.

 

[gathermewool]

Actually it's way beyond insanity.
A lot of folks just cant afford that - they will loose their houses and apartments.

To put this in perspective - buying a house or a apartment in Germany is really expensive and difficult.
Usually you need to have a ton of money before you even get a credit - and than you pay your mortgage for pretty much for the rest of your live, or at least till you retire. That's why even in Romania more people own houses and apartments, then here in Germany.

And on top of it - now they shut down the last three nuclear power plants we have left, which will rise electricity bills again - and we have the highest prices worldwide already.

That so called "new green deal" made energy so expensiv over here, that even solar panel and windmill companies can't afford it anymore - 4 months ago, the last "green deal" windmill company left the country and went to India, because of the high energy prices..

Wouldn’t high energy costs incentivize wind and solar? Of all other sources are expensive then they can sell for higher to recoup their investments.