Increased lead with Schaeffer 9000?

[dkryan]

This was a Blackstone analysis, correct?

I'm surprised your flashpoint (385) is as high as they are claiming considering your fuel dilution is reading at 2.0

Blackstone uses an "open cup" method for determining the flashpoint, a process I've heard is not nearly as accurate as the "closed cup" method. I'm willing to bet if your fuel dilution is truly at 2.0, your flashpoint is more likely to be 280 to 290, not 385.

What's interesting to me is that the lead jumped higher with the fuel dilution level but the iron and copper trended mostly at the same levels.

Some random thoughts: if you switch to the 7000 (or any other oil), run that same brand/weight for at least three separate OCIs before you sample it for a UOA. As alluded to by Doug, "one-pass" UOAs really tell us very little. You'd need three OCIs to ensure any UOA on the 7000 is not reflecting "leftovers" from the 9000.

In my 2001 Infiniti I30 (3.0L V6 - I know, completely different engine), whenever the fuel dilution spikes, so does the lead levels. Most of the other wear metals stay constant, but the lead jumps off the UOA page.

 

[moeb]

Yes, it's Blackstone. Can't explain the flashpoint, that's just what Blackstone said. In any case, the numbers are consistent with previous UOAs I've had with elevated fuel. Here they are (all are with MC 15W40):

0.5 / 405
1.0 / 400
2.0 / 390
2.5 / 385
3.5 / 375

I am running Schaeffer's 7000 in it now but plan to run MC 15W40 a few cycles after this run to see what the lead does. I know not to read too much into the first few UOAs after switching oils, but if it's elevated because of some chemical reaction thing of the 9000, I would nonetheless expect it to start coming down. If it's due to premature wear, well... I'll be sad.

 

[JohnBrowning]

RI_RS4, Doug is for all practical purpose a Subject Matter Expert with regard to interpreting UOA from Diesel Engines. I have tribology training from GM but I would never put myself in the same category as Terry Dyson for instance. Many of the Amsoil sellers on this site have learned their trade from hand on experince are are not Professional tribologists but that does make their input any less valuable. My experience comes from my Applied Science Degree in Aviation Technology, Automotive Apprenticeship in Germany, hands on training with GM,Years of building and repairing engines both professionally and as a hobby and my work experience doing Forensic Analytical Engine Tear Down work and quality control work with GM. I dare say that while I am am not a professional tribologist I have more automotive and aviation knowledge in my middle finger then most of the poster's on this sight. I started reading UOA as a child when my Dad would bring home UOA reports from all the Bradley Fighting Vehicles in his Brigade and would teach class's to the other enlisted men on how to properly read them! I also worked with Heavy Equipment right out of college for a while doing both machine work and sales. Non of this makes me a professional tribologist but it gives me unique insight as to what is causing the wear in an engine. Also as part of my Aviation Technology degree we had extensive training in interpreting UOA as it is done as a matter of routine in the Aviation world. Just because I do not have a degree in chemistry or tribology does not make my opinion any less valid and like wise Doug's should not be taken any less seriously. He has seen UOA in his fleet operations of Commercial Diesels then most people on this sight will see in a lifetime!

In fact if I recall Terry Dyson learned most of his trade while working for the Army so what are you going to tell Terry? Does his opinion not count now? It is like most things in life. First you have to understand what cause's what and how any one cause or effect can relate to many other cause and effect relationships in a complex system! UOA is not a linear science. The more of them you see for any given engine type the better you get at interpreting them. After a while you start to see trends and that is what UOA is about trends not individual UOA!

On of the reason I took a few years away from this sight was due to too many internet genius that had next to no real world experience be too generous with their opinions. Then you had the overly commercial aspect that the sight was taking…Their was an open agenda for a while between the sponsors and anything that went contrary to their sales or promotion of their products! I like most of the products that the site sponsors sell and often recommend them myself but it was getting a bit obvious that some sponsors where trying to push their product at all cost instead of give truly good advice. Having been on the sight long before most of the current sponsors where sponsors I saw the change in the advice some of them where giving. Nothing wrong with plugging your product but when someone compromise’s their integrity to make a sale that disgusts me. I am very consistent with what I recommend because I do not sell any oils and never plan on selling any oil. Some peoples advice changed over night the second they went from using Amsoil on occasion to selling it for instance! Some of the Amsoils people are great guys and give good advice and are able to leave their bias at the door when making coments on other products and making recommendations but not all of them. Same thing goes for other sponsors. If someone is always plugging their own product and never has anything good to say about other products then chances are good they have an agenda and their advice should be taken with a grain of salt!

Doug has never as far as I am aware given out any advice that would cause any harm to anyone. Even when we have had a difference of opinion his advice has never been harmful to anyone. If people only want professionals on here then almost 9/10 of the current membership would have to stop posting!! Most of the sponsors like wise are not subject matter experts in the cause of being professional tribologists and I am sure few of them have advanced degree’s in chemistry or anything else related directly to interpreting used oil analysis! So lets all get along and not act like petty school kids! There is a site for professional in the lubrication industry to get together and talk shop but it is not BITOG.


Trying to keep the peace,




John

 

[moeb]

OK. So, what do you think about my elevated lead?

 

[mettech]

This may have already been ask.. but I'll ask again...

Did you use any bio fuel or fuel additive?

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: mettech
This may have already been ask.. but I'll ask again...

Did you use any bio fuel or fuel additive?



That's the question I had as well from looking at this thread. Additives can spike a lead reading.

 

[moeb]

Originally Posted By: mettech
This may have already been ask.. but I'll ask again...

Did you use any bio fuel or fuel additive?



Yes, I used 5% to 10% bio during the first UOA run. I might have used some bio druing second UOA run, but much less than the previous run since I quit using it after getting the first report with elevated lead and being advised on this forum to try a run without it.

Prior to using bio, I used Stanadyne Performance additive and DieselKleen (white bottle) additive while running Motorcraft 15w40. Never any lead elevation.

I started using Motorcraft PM22 cetane boost toward the very end of the last run and am currently still using it.

 

[bismic1]

Just an FYI - The Schaeffer formula does not have any lead in it (actually it had 1 ppm). I had an analysis done on the virgin oil. Also, my lead went down to 1 ppm after 4 oil changes w/ Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5W40.

(Unfortunately my iron went from 29 to 78 w/ the PBE).

 

[Food Scientist]

I would not believe it to be the oil for a few reasons.

1. How many other engines have lead lined bearings that use Schaeffer oil and not have problems?
2. How does molybdenum chelate lead? Here is a definition -

Chealte - to combine (an organic compound) with a metallic ion to form a chelate.
From what I know about about organic chemistry, what makes organic organic is there has to be a direct carbon-hydrogen bond. There is neither carbon or hydrogen present in MoS2, making it an inorganic compound. Therefore, it cannot chelate lead.

3. I run Schaeffer Supreme 9000 in my car and my oil analysis (only one) showed 0 ppm lead.

 

[moeb]

Here is my first UOA since switching from Schaeffer's 9000 5W40 to 7000 15W40.

The rightmost column is the last UOA I had using Motorcraft 15W40, which is what the truck has used since new. The next three to the left are Schaeffer's 9000, and the leftmost column is the first UOA using Schaeffer's 7000 15W40.

I know it will take a series of UOAs on this oil before any meaningful conclusions can be drawn, but I find it interesting that the lead and tin readings dropped by half, and iron dropped by 25% to 15 ppm (the lowest level I've seen on this engine, btw). This is all despite the fact that fuel in oil is at 3% (the highest level I've seen on this truck).

SVTCobra, thanks for your input. I know lots of engines do very well on S9000, and I am still puzzled why mine does not. I think there are organic alkyl molybdenum complexes, but whether or not Schaeffer's 9000 contains any, I have no idea. I'm also not convinced chelating is the reason why my engine saw elevated lead readings...it may just be plain old increased bearing wear for all I know. I do know that lead went up as soon as I started using S9000. Tin then followed on the 3rd run. I also know that both went down as soon as I stopped using S9000.

I should also note that from 40k miles on I have mostly stopped using biodiesel and have started using Motorcraft cetane boost additive. Also, I only towed (10,000 lbs) for a couple hundred miles on this last UOA run.

I was originally planning to switch back to Motorcraft 15W40, but at the last minute I decided to go back with the S7000. I think I'll run it a couple more cycles just to see what it does. It looks like my engine may like it (fingers crossed).

 

[Food Scientist]

Moeb,

Now that you mention it I remember Schaeffer engine oil doesn't use MoS2 because it isn't soluble in oil. Instead, they do use the organic moly you mentioned because it is a liquid that is soluble. They do however still use MoS2 in their greases and non-engine oils because it is present in a colloidal solution, no filters present, and works just as effective if not better than organic moly.

As far as your results by switching off of Supreme 9000, you can't argue with success.

 

[syndini]

Just want to see where moeb's UOA's stand now with the 7000. I noticed nothing has been posted here in a while and I was seeing the same lead trending when I was running the 9000. Time for me to reorder and looking hard at the 7000. Any news?

 

[moeb]

Syndini, here's my last UOA. Things did continue to improve (note that the run was shorter than the previous two, which were too long IMO).

I continued with the 7000 in the next cycle, but unfortunately I had an EGR cooler failure at around 58K miles and coolant blew by the rings and got into the oil and ruined it. It was refilled with whatever the diesel shop buys in bulk (probably Rotella 15W40), but I will go back with the Schaeffer 7K when I change it again.

 

[Johnny]

I noticed on you latest UOA that the fuel dilution went way down. Have any idea what caused that?

 

[moeb]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
I noticed on you latest UOA that the fuel dilution went way down. Have any idea what caused that?


Not really sure. The fuel dilution on this engine has always fluctuated between trace and 3.5%. I presume the variation is due to operation/usage differences between oil cycles (e.g., more short trips, less towing, etc), but I have never really been able to make any sense of it. I've been told that Ford considers anything under 6% to be "normal."

 

[roadrunner1]

i had 2 sucsessive uao's last year on my '07 6.0 with over 3% fuel dilution (they're posted on here i believe)
it was determined to be an injector o-ring, and fixed under warrenty.

it looks like you are out of warrenty, but i would keep a close eye on it, after my o-ring issue was repaired fuel has been <.5% on every uoa

 

[moeb]

Thanks roadrunner, yes i'm out of warranty (didn't get it extended). You are probably right that one or more o-rings may be leaking, but I would assume an injector o-ring either leaks all the time or not at all. I get a UOA every oil change and fuel has only been above 2% three times.

 

[roadrunner1]

it could possibly be a bad/clogged injector tip(s). keep running the cetane improver, it really helps with keeping filters/injectors, egr valves, and turbo clean

 

[bismic1]

At 27,000 psig, injector tips don't get clogged very often. If they do, fuel additives are not going to help much.

Also, I split samples w/ my last UOA. One went to Polaris and one went to Blackstone.

The Blackstone fuel dilution was less than 0.5%. The Polaris number was 2.9%. I really could not smell any diesel in either sample. All other results were very similar. This is the first result I have ever gotten over 0.5%. Almost all other results have been w/ Blackstone. The difference is dissapointing, but I tend to believe that you can "miss finding" the fuel, but probably can't find fuel that isn't there ....

Blackstones flaspoint was 415, Polaris did not give me one.

 

[REDDOG]

Polaris uses GC (gas chromatography) to calculate fuel dilution which is much more accurate.